Channel 13 Empty Holster report.

[quiggly]

Just listening to Channel 13 news teases and they are going to have a report tonight on firearm holsters being seen all over college campuses.

FYI

 

[henktermaat]

Got any background info?

 

[Ness2k]

The holster's on my hip, but the firearm is under my arm!

 

[SirRealism]

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus - ConcealedCampus.org

 

[22lr]

Taking the holster to school with me tomorrow at IUPUI.

 

[henktermaat]

Nice... They have my support... not that I'm in college anymore

 

[SirRealism]

I can still pass for a college student. I'll take a couple strolls through IUPUI tomorrow. I suppose an IWB or and ankle holster wouldn't count, would it?

 

[IndyGunworks]

i support the movement... but i kind of doubt that it will ever happen.

 

[Griffeycom]

Students push for change to conceal carry law on campuses
April 21, 2009 10:58 PM

Richard Essex/Eyewitness News
Indianapolis - Gun holsters are on display as part of a protest at college campuses across the state.
The protest, organizers say, isn't about Second Amendment rights, it's about protecting themselves in a way they feel is appropriate. Jordan Stover was at the IUPUI Student Center with his gun holster - no gun, just the holster - leading the protest without signs or yelling.
"I haven't had any open questions, I have had some glances," Stover said. "We are not looking at this from a Second Amendment aspect, we are looking at it from a practical, self-defense aspect."
Citing the Virginia Tech shootings, Stover and a number of other law students felt it was time to protect themselves.
"The only survivors of Virginia Tech in many of those classrooms are the ones that jumped out of a third story window," Stover said. "I don't want to be that student that jumps from a window to save myself, I would rather have a way of protecting myself right then and there."
IUPUI doesn't allow students, faculty or visitors to legally carry guns on campus.
"We are looking to protect ourselves and possibly others in the process of protecting ourselves," law student Shannon Melton said.
"IUPUI is committed to having a campus that is violence-free and part of that commitment means keeping weapons and other means of violence off the campus," said Rich Schneider at IUPUI.
Stover and others started the protest in hopes of changing the policy. That change would have to come from one of two groups - the Board of Trustees would have to vote to change the policy, or the Indiana General Assembly would have to change the law.
"Some are sympathetic to the cause and agree that students shouldn't be disarmed, some are dead set against it and they don't even want to hear what your argument is," said Stover.
Senate Bill 12, which is moving through the Indiana General Assembly, would allow students to carry guns on Campus if properly licensed, if it becomes law.

Students push for change to conceal carry law on campuses - WTHR | Indianapolis



"IUPUI doesn't allow students, faculty or visitors to legally carry guns on campus."

*sigh* It's not a LEGAL issue it's a POLICY issue, way to go WTHR

 

[melensdad]

Why was SB12 cited in relation to college campuses? Maybe I'm confused but I was not aware it is illegal to carry on college campuses, I thought it was just against the policy of the university. Further, while students may not carry due to policy, I don't understand how a university could prevent me (I'm old and not a student) from carrying on campus with a policy in their student handbook.

Anyone have any insight?

 

[SirRealism]

"IUPUI is committed to having a campus that is violence-free and part of that commitment means keeping weapons and other means of violence off the campus," said Rich Schneider at IUPUI.

But wait, how come this guy didn't follow that rule:
Two students robbed at gunpoint on IUPUI campus - WTHR | Indianapolis

Evidently, he didn't confer with Rich Schnieder before he pulled a shotgun on two students – students Mr. Scheider wants to remain unarmed and defenseless.

I know... I'm preaching to the choir.

 

[Lt. Dan]

Why was SB12 cited in relation to college campuses? Maybe I'm confused but I was not aware it is illegal to carry on college campuses, I thought it was just against the policy of the university. Further, while students may not carry due to policy, I don't understand how a university could prevent me (I'm old and not a student) from carrying on campus with a policy in their student handbook.

Anyone have any insight?

I think that the issue is that the university can effectively prevent you from carrying through the threat of expulsion or equally serious disciplinary action. SB12 would prevent them from doing this. As it stands now a law-abiding, LTCH-holding student could still carry, get caught, get kicked out of school, but not be convicted with a crime. IANAL.

Chapter 11.5. Regulation of Firearms by State Universities and Colleges
Sec. 1. A state educational institution may not regulate in any manner the ownership, possession, carrying, or transportation of firearms or ammunition.

Though I agree with the spirit of the Concealed Carry on Campus movement, I'm not sure the empty holster thing is the way to demonstrate that, because 1) it doesn't represent concealed carry and 2) it might further ingrain the impression that allowing "guns on campus" is going to be disruptive to the educational process.


"Eek! Johnny is packing a 1911 in History class!"
*sorority girls faint*

 

[LoveMyRuger]

At your age??

I can still pass for a college student. I'll take a couple strolls through IUPUI tomorrow. I suppose an IWB or and ankle holster wouldn't count, would it?

Hmmmmm.....and which is it??

 

[melensdad]

I think that the issue is that the university can effectively prevent you from carrying through the threat of expulsion or equally serious disciplinary action. SB12 would prevent them from doing this. As it stands now a law-abiding, LTCH-holding student could still carry, get caught, get kicked out of school, but not be convicted with a crime. IANAL.

Yes, I understand that part of the policy, but as I asked, how can a student policy manual prevent me (a non-student) from legally carrying on campus? I ask this because most colleges, especially places like IU and Purdue, are intermixed into the city with campus on one side of the street and non-campus the other, but then a block or two away campus is on both sides, and then another block or two away back to only being on 1 side. People who are not students can walk, drive, bicycle across town and enter/exit the campus 10 times while going in a straight line.

IUPUI doesn't allow students, faculty or visitors to legally carry guns on campus.

If you look at the story as it was reported it indicates that it is illegal to have a gun on campus. I do not believe that is true. That is what I was questioning.

I understand they can have 'student rules' for the students. I understand they can have 'work rules' for the faculty/staff. But how can they have rules that affect me if I am going through town and campus is in town?

 

[Griffeycom]

melensdad, it is not illegal to carry on campus, only school policy, the reporter was either saying that it's not legal according to policy or just misinformed, I'm HOPING he just used a poor word choice. But, I know what you're saying and what I'm betting would happen if you carried while walking THROUGH campus, is that you'd be stopped by IUPUI PD and then let go if you were sticking to the side walks as you are not doing anything Illegal but i'm not sure, ask Denny347, he is former IUPUI PD.

 

[Denny347]

melensdad, it is not illegal to carry on campus, only school policy, the reporter was either saying that it's not legal according to policy or just misinformed, I'm HOPING he just used a poor word choice. But, I know what you're saying and what I'm betting would happen if you carried while walking THROUGH campus, is that you'd be stopped by IUPUI PD and then let go if you were sticking to the side walks as you are not doing anything Illegal but i'm not sure, ask Denny347, he is former IUPUI PD.

Ha, start dragging me into this huh . We have never escorted a non-student/employee/student off-campus for carrying (while I was there 1996-2002) but always directed them to lock the pistol in a pistol locker on station and give you the only key. IUPUI PD has to follow IUPUI guidelines and not officially endorse carrying on campus. Many of the upper brass is pro-carry and may give you the WINK when speaking about CC on campus. As long as there are no laws broken, getting expelled is remote. IUPUI is not nearly as liberal as IUB.

 

[hoosiertriangle]

You may not like it because of the possible consequences, but how else can you get arguably decent media time otherwise? If WTHR really wanted a good story they'd look at the number of people mugged on campus or at the hospital. Rarely do protests start out as a popular activity with little negative consequences.

I think that the issue is that the university can effectively prevent you from carrying through the threat of expulsion or equally serious disciplinary action. SB12 would prevent them from doing this. As it stands now a law-abiding, LTCH-holding student could still carry, get caught, get kicked out of school, but not be convicted with a crime. IANAL.



Though I agree with the spirit of the Concealed Carry on Campus movement, I'm not sure the empty holster thing is the way to demonstrate that, because 1) it doesn't represent concealed carry and 2) it might further ingrain the impression that allowing "guns on campus" is going to be disruptive to the educational process.


"Eek! Johnny is packing a 1911 in History class!"
*sorority girls faint*

 

[kludge]

IUPUI doesn't allow students, faculty or visitors to legally carry guns on campus.

If you look at the story as it was reported it indicates that it is illegal to have a gun on campus. I do not believe that is true. That is what I was questioning.

AFAIK, there is no case law to tell us will 100% surity that the definition of "school" does not include colleges and universities.

Since "school" is not defined in the chapter about carrying of handguns we have to rely on other definitions of "school" in other parts of the code, either that or look at common usage (i.e. dictionary definitions).

In other parts of the code, we see the definition including "school corporations" which are K-12, also we see head start, pre-schools, etc. in there, but no mention of colleges and universitites, so in a ISC case the lawyer might argue that "school" includes colleges and universities, and that is easily proved. The opposite side would claim that "school" was defined in other sections of the code and that's what the legislators were talking about... and then it would up to the court to decide how broadly to interpret "school."

And there would be all sort of arguments about public safety and right to self defense... probably both using VT as an example, it's anybody's guess which side the court would come down on.

I suppose however that even if you won the school would probably still probably expel you to make an example out of you... but I would counter sue, that since the university was supported by taxpayer money they could not expel you for doing something legal on property owned by the taxpayers of the State.

The recently proposed legislation would go a step further, making it so that publicly supported institutions of higher learning could not prohibit licensed carry.

 

[Griffeycom]

Kludge, there is somewhere I have seen that defines "school" as K-12 + Preschool. Not post secondary Education, I've had nothing but bad luck with the SEARCH on this site so I cannot find it.

Denny, what about someone who is simply walking THROUGH campus, say from West St down to White River Parkway via Michigan, what would IUPUI PD do to the person carrying in that situation?

 

[Scutter01]

We have never escorted a non-student/employee/student off-campus for carrying (while I was there 1996-2002) but always directed them to lock the pistol in a pistol locker on station and give you the only key.

What if they refused to be disarmed?