Letter from Sen. Jim Tomes

[Bill of Rights]

I just reeived the following from Sen. Tomes on his 2A Patriots email list, titled, "Moving the wrong way":

I feel compelled to explain my opinion on what has happened here in Evansville at the Mesker Zoo where a gentleman made the news because he was carrying a firearm openly.

It has created quite a lot of interest. In fact one of the local TV stations came to my house to do an interview on Monday. There are some things that need to be considered.

All of you know my position on promoting our Constitutional rights, but this is no game. Reason will tell us that with the mindset of our current society, which is afraid of their own shadow, anyone seeing someone with a pistol on their hip in a setting like a zoo or city park is going to definitely get the 911 lines lit up.

It's my hope that we can de-program our society to think no more about a citizen carrying openly than they would someone in a uniform and a badge, but we're a long way from that right now. There is a method and a strategy on how to accomplish this, but, this is certainly not the way.

This past session we made some phenomenal accomplishments in Indiana. There was several pro gun bills that became law. The carry to the workplace clean up bill by our good friend Sen. Johnny Nugent, Sen. Holdman's bill that allows folks to buy long guns beyond our Indiana border states, Sen. Steele's bill that allows people to carry long guns loaded on off road vehicles.

Then we had the two that I got passed; the law that now allows our citizens to transport a handgun in a vehicle without a license and the one that is at the heart of what we're dealing with now, SB 292 which not only de-clawed local government from regulating firearms, ammunition and accessories, but it also took their teeth out.

Those battles were hard fought. I know most folks were not up at the Statehouse during those 4 months to witness the debates and attacks on those of us who were pushing these bills through, but those wins did not come easily. There was a lot of money and power pushing back.

There were meetings, I won't say clandestine but some of them did take place in late hours, to weaken SB 292. I was never invited to those meetings, but I know they took place. Nevertheless we succeeded, but keep in mind there were many in both the Senate and House that opposed us and they are still licking their wounds.

There are suggestions by some to try to revisit SB 292 and water it down this next session. We have a lot of folks who are now enjoying the efforts by those legislators who stood their grounds against all odds and pulled off a win. I know many of you were involved in writing and calling your particular legislators to support the effort, but we have a lot of folks who never lifted a finger to make a call, write or e-mail and certainly did not attend a meeting to see what was unfolding and how they could assist.

But now, here we have folks who are planning on going to our local zoo and city parks to stage an "open carry party." This is no game. Do they have any idea of how quickly they can unravel hard work, late nights and early mornings, I mean early, in getting SB 292 passed? Where were they when we needed them to call and come to our meetings? They were too busy, they had parties to go to, movies to see, ball games to attend and dinner dates.

If I sound a little irritated, that's not so. I'm a lot irritated. To go out and see how much public support you can eradicate with some school yard prank does not set well with me and all the other folks who applied themselves.

Margie and I just got home after two days up in Indy. Yesterday I had a senator and good friend who supported me in SB 292 even though he was getting worked over in his district for it asked me if we shouldn't pass a bill prohibiting open carry. He told me he would vote for one if it was offered. This is one of our guys. What do you think the ones who were against us are thinking???

I doubt whether this letter will fall in front of the eyes who really need to read it, but I can only hope. If anyone wants to know how we can really establish an atmosphere like we once had in this country where people didn't run from their own shadow and folks could carry openly without someone calling in an air strike, try to attend our Patriot meeting this Saturday. I think the fellow who made the news at the zoo may also be there.

On the Barnes case, as you may know, the Indiana Supreme Court reaffirmed their decision. However, there will be measure taken in the legislature to correct this controversy. There will be more information on this later.

Remember that Congressman Buschon and GOP Mayoral candidate Lloyd Wineke will be at our meeting.

Bring what you want for our meal if you will please. Thank you,

Jim and Margie
2nd Amendment Patriots
STAY UNITED
www.2ndamendmentpatriots.org

I sent him the following reply:

Jim,


I have just read your last email on the Patriots list and I feel compelled to write back.


I've had a couple of conversations with the gentleman who was harassed by the local PD prior to this incident and found him to be a level-headed individual who just happens to believe in OC. He didn't go to Mesker to engage in a schoolyard prank, nor to see how much support he could lose, he went to Mesker with his family, period. When he goes places, he carries. He chooses to OC.


Now... I don't OC, but I do support the fact that IN law does not speak to that method of carry. On the other side of this, as you know, I was as involved as I was able to be in the passage of 292 and your other bills, and I do know how hard-fought and hard-won those laws were... I can sympathize with your position.


I have to ask, though, if we don't carry openly or we CAN'T carry openly because of some misguided law the antis might try to push... what's the difference? This gentleman was obeying the law. The police were not. If the situation were reversed, would there be people defending him for breaking the law as they are defending the police in this case?


I hope that you find these thoughts worthy of consideration and further, I hope that those you need to convince of the same are equally receptive of them.


Good wishes to you and Margie, as always.


Blessings,
Bill

He is a reasonable man; I think he'll at least consider the thoughts therein.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[mrortega]

Bill, I see your point but I can feel the fear in Jim's tone that we very well could lose our right to OC and a lot more if we scare the H*** out of people. We can't win doing that. We have to convince them, sometimes one by one. Consider how many people have posted all across this web site about getting people involved who have never shot or owned a gun; their spouses, work aquaintenances, even antis. Each time that happens we gain another person who understands. I just posted on the Evansville incident thread my feelings about not cramming this down the throats of the public. Most of the non-gun owning public don't think about things that we talk about every day. But if there is a big show of force (and that's how people will look at it) I believe we may awaken a sleeping, uninformed, freightened giant. I don't want my state house rep, Wendy McNamara, to lose in two years because she voted for all the pro-gun bills and her future opponent will tie her to this mass hysteria. She only won her election campaign by 8 votes! When Sen. Tomes states that even pro-gun people may turn against us on the OC issue we'd better take it seriously. I believe we need to cool it and not hand our opponents the ammo they need to hurt us.

 

[ATM]

Everyone should carry as they normally would as they go about their normal business at the normal places they visit.

The only thing we don't need right now is to get too far ahead of the general public's learning curve by acting abnormal - at least in the areas where they don't seem to see it very often.

I'll not repond to Jim right now. Bill's response is quite nice.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I can see both sides of this, mrortega, as I told him. I was involved before, I'll be involved again. The point here, though, is that TF wasn't going to Mesker TO OC, he was going to Mesker, period. The OC was incidental. That's the part no one outside of this board (and some here, too) don't seem to understand.

I also fear the uninformed being whipped into a frenzy by reporters, but I'm not willing to crap on someone's rights to prevent that (not saying you or anyone else is, just that I'm not)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[mrortega]

I understand, Bill. I plan on going to the 2A meeting Saturday night and it sounds like a few other members will be there too. I've lived long enough to see how things work and perception is very powerful (look who was elected president 2 years ago.) If a clever politician can pit groups of people against each other with lies what can they do to us in the area of gun rights? I started carrying a long time ago because I was in a bad situation one day, completely at the mercy of someone else. I don't ever want to go back there. I don't want mom and the kiddies to freak and start demanding gun control because they can't go to the zoo.

 

[Josh Ward]

I believe we need to cool it and not hand our opponents the ammo they need to hurt us.

Cool what??? The man was just taking his family to the zoo????

Everyone should carry as they normally would as they go about their normal business at the normal places they visit

^^^This^^^

 

[pudly]

But now, here we have folks who are planning on going to our local zoo and city parks to stage an "open carry party." This is no game. Do they have any idea of how quickly they can unravel hard work, late nights and early mornings, I mean early, in getting SB 292 passed? Where were they when we needed them to call and come to our meetings? They were too busy, they had parties to go to, movies to see, ball games to attend and dinner dates.

If I sound a little irritated, that's not so. I'm a lot irritated. To go out and see how much public support you can eradicate with some school yard prank does not set well with me and all the other folks who applied themselves.

I'm not sure if people are just missing the point. It appears that Mr. Tomes isn't complaining about the original OC at the zoo, but instead about what be believes is deliberate provocation that might set the cause back. The "school yard prank" is not OCing. It is the "open carry party".

 

[Rookie]

I'm not sure if people are just missing the point. It appears that Mr. Tomes isn't complaining about the original OC at the zoo, but instead about what be believes is deliberate provocation that might set the cause back. The "school yard prank" is not OCing. It is the "open carry party".

Exactly. I will continue to OC as I normally do. I will also continue to not give a second thought to an OC party.

A "show of force" is unnecessary and very possibly detrimental to our rights.

 

[jedi]

While I hope this is not true of Sen. Tomes I fear it is beginning to show.

Power is always dangerous. Power attracts the worst and corrupts the best.
~ Edward Abbey

and

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.
~ Lord Acton

I have no doubt that he is still very PRO-2A but perhaps not the the full level that he was before he became senator. As I'm sure he now knows/understand the "game" he must play in Indy to get what bills he wants passed. In time like all that go into politics he too being human will become "corrupt" (ie. lose his way, original goals, line of thinking, etc...) just comes as a shock that its coming so soon or we are beginning to see it so soon.

The "stress" of the last session was greater than I thought for him then. hum... Keep us posted BoR and let us know what happens at the meeting. Sadly it's too far away for many of us in NWI who are active on this issue.

The other "issue" we have in IN now is that we do not have a single "voice" that speaks for the IN gunowners on these type of "political" items. So we have a disconnect between the pro-2A politicans and the pro-2A active gun owners. As it shown in this case.

There is talk and organization of a OC at the zoo being done on here and probably the other 2 indiana gun forums and yet there is no coordination with those in Indy that write laws. No overall plan of action. Some might say the NRA but I don't see them around helping with this. Others might say the patriots (perhaps that might be the closest we have) but there are not everwhere yet either nor do I think that they are under/doing stuff with one main goal/focus.



So rigth now we have several regional groups all doing what they might think is best.

 

[GuyRelford]

I have spoken to Senator Tomes about the litigation and he is definitely not talking about the original occurrence in the Mesker Zoo. He is talking about a possiple subsequent "open carry event" at the zoo.

I agree with him 100%. This is a very bad idea and would only hurt our cause. If you know anyone planning to participate in such an event, please urge them to reconsider. If you see any discussion of such an event here or on any other forum, please let the persons involved know that Sen. Tomes and I strongly urge them to refrain from organizing or participating in any such event.

Guy

 

[Kirk Freeman]

This is no game.

I say this as personal opinion and not in any official capacity:

No one is playing games. People are merely exercising their civil right of carrying an handgun.

The person at the zoo in Evansville was violating no laws. The person at the zoo was not hurting anyone or anyone's property.

As well, I remind the good Senator that the police were hassling legal gun carriers, and pointing guns at them, long before SB292 was even introduced:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ying_in_broad_ripple_indy_gimp_encounter.html

I fail to see how a voluntary reduction of our civil rights will advance our civil rights. However, I do agree that a redoubled effort in the General Assembly need to come from gun owners. We need to hold those who interfere with our rights directly accountable. Instead of the taxpayers paying the monetary judgments for misguided governmental policy, the paying needs to be done by the politicians and police.

Let us resolve to:

1. Hold civil rights violators directly accountable.
2. Exempt LTCH holders from school property prohibitions.
3. Establish a fund for public range development paid for by those who interfere with our civil right to carry a gun.
4. Push for firearms education in government schools.

 

[jedi]

See the post by TFT proves my point. We are getting criss-cross information from within the gun community iteself and thus the right hand has no idea what the left hand is doing. A central body *IS* needed.

 

[Scutter01]

See the post by TFT proves my point. We are getting criss-cross information from within the gun community iteself and thus the right hand has no idea what the left hand is doing. A central body *IS* needed.

Good luck with that. You can't get gun owners to decide on what color the sky is (it's blue, by the way, but I bet at least one person will disagree, even just to make a joke). The arguments against OC right here on INGO should be proof enough that there is a large and vocal contingent of gun owners who would love nothing more than to see that right be taken away.

 

[CarmelHP]

The only way to immunize people to open carry is to let them see it as not unusual. I don't think an open carry event is unwise. Showing no support for the person originally harassed is unwise. 30 years ago you would never see the word "gay" in a mainstream newspaper, let alone "queer." Now we have gay marriages, gays openly in the military, and TV shows with titles like "Queer Eye..." How did that change come about? By constant "in your face" action by groups like "Queer Nation." Don't mistake, I don't necessarily agree with their objective, but you can't deny their effectiveness. They took issues that a generation ago 80% of the population found disgusting and made them mainstream acceptable. Hiding has never served gun owners or any movement well. There has been too much of it, and is part of the reason we're not farther along in the Second Amendment cause than we are. I don't think peaceful "we're here" type demonstrations ill-serve our cause.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Excellent, Carmel.

I want to emphasize how peaceful the gun carriers have been.

Even while I was spit on, yelled at, and had a pistol pointed at my leg, I did not raise my voice, I did not use profanity, I was not even "smart" with the officers. As part of an unprotected class, gun owners need to be on their best behavior, and even better.

At the Evansville zoo, the individual is using legal means to enforce his rights and letting the rule of law prevail over the rule of man.

 

[mrortega]

About the only thing more provocative would be for a bunch of you to stand on the sidewalk pointing to your holstered pistols and giving passers bye the finger with the other hand. Can you do that? Hell yes. "It's your constitutional right, by G**." Don't you get it? We are only an election or an assassination away from losing a whole bunch of rights. We need more people to understand and support gun rights. Call me a p**** if you want but enough with the "it's our right" and "use it or lose it" type of reasoning. I plan on doing something positive Saturday. I don't like to OC but I will "for the cause." I've been waiting for the bike/walk path to get completed along Pigeon creek and it's almost done. I'm going to park in the muesum parking lot and bicycle along the riverfront and continue north and west till I hit the end of the trail. Hopefully it is finished all the way to Garvin park. I'll be neatly dressed and open carry my G23 in a retention holster on my right hip. If/when walkers/bikers notice and someone says something I'll point out that a woman was beaten and raped on the north end of the path a few years ago and I'm being careful. I don't expect anyone here to join me for an "event." If you want to do something go to Eastland Mall or one of the Walmarts. Get a few people out in the community and let some people see us. Call it a multi-site carry event and maybe something positive will come of that. Discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[Scutter01]

Get a few people out in the community and let some people see us. Call it a multi-site carry event and maybe something positive will come of that. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Put on some orange vests and pick up trash along the highway while OC'ing. People will see gun owners as helping rather than being inflammatory.

 

[pinshooter45]

I agree open carry Parties can too easily be demonized by an unfriendly press as an armed mob or one of those crazy Militia groups. We don't want to be timid, but in your face protests are not the way to go. We need to do this recovery of our rights like they have taken them away from us over the years, chip away at it a little at a time. I keep bouncing around the Idea of open carry. But I live in a high crime area and just don't want to play 20 questions with a LEO. Their job is tough enough in my area with out wasting their time with me because some one got scared because the saw my colt on my hip. One or two less LEO to take care of real crime.

 

[CarmelHP]

I've been in the gun rights thing for the better part of 3 decades. Nothing, NOTHING, is more emboldening, or inflammatory, to an anti-gunner than the perception that gun owners are cowed, or indifferent to a right. Nothing gets their juices flowing faster than the belief that they'll meet weak or no opposition. Jim may not remember that he has swayed elections and defeated bills not be doing nothing or being meek and mild, but by turning out busloads of people in support or opposition.

 

[4sarge]

The only way to immunize people to open carry is to let them see it as not unusual. I don't think an open carry event is unwise. Showing no support for the person originally harassed is unwise. 30 years ago you would never see the word "gay" in a mainstream newspaper, let alone "queer." Now we have gay marriages, gays openly in the military, and TV shows with titles like "Queer Eye..." How did that change come about? By constant "in your face" action by groups like "Queer Nation." Don't mistake, I don't necessarily agree with their objective, but you can't deny their effectiveness. They took issues that a generation ago 80% of the population found disgusting and made them mainstream acceptable. Hiding has never served gun owners or any movement well. There has been too much of it, and is part of the reason we're not farther along in the Second Amendment cause than we are. I don't think peaceful "we're here" type demonstrations ill-serve our cause.

Excellent Post