The new laws and County Fairgrounds?

[Hoosierdood]

To start off, I know what the new laws are, and what all goes into effect on July 1. My biggest problem (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) is trying to determine what actually constitutes a "subdivision". Is it any building/corporation/legal entity who receives any funding from tax dollars?

Specifically, I am planning on taking my family to the St. Joseph County 4-H fair on July 1, and am curious as to whether the fairgrounds are owned by the county, and if it falls under SEA 292 which goes into effect on July 1. I am also looking forward to the Marshall County Blueberry Festival over Labor Day Weekend, and wondering if I can carry there as well. Both of these venues have always had a strict "No Weapons" policy. Can I carry there now after July 1?


Bottom line: Are county fairs considered private property or are they owned by the county?

 

[Bill of Rights]

The answer is... it depends. Who owns the fairground where it's being held? if it is privately owned or if it is leased by a non-governmental organization, guns can still be banned, though without force of law. If the county owns and runs it, i suppose they could do the metal detector thing, but that would only restrict those who carry without a LTCH.

As always, IANAL and TINLA.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Roadie]

That begs the question, what about the "No Guns at the State Fair" law?

 

[tv1217]

I was actually wondering about this myself. The Lake county fairgrounds has a no firearms rule.

 

[jedi]

I was actually wondering about this myself. The Lake county fairgrounds has a no firearms rule.

Hum.. good question but does it really matter to many of us (LTCH holders)?
In the case of the LAKE COUNTY FAIR GROUNDS the way I understand the new laws unless there is a court house on the property we (LTCH holders) are good to go no matter what. Even if they put metal detectors with LEOs as BOR said that will ONLY affect non-LTCH holders.

Am I reading the new laws wrong?

 

[tv1217]

If I go, I'm carrying like usual, but I assume they can't really even ask you to leave now.

 

[jedi]

If I go, I'm carrying like usual, but I assume they can't really even ask you to leave now.

Well they could but since it's a PUBLIC property and not PRIVATE you don't have to listen (ie. you will NOT be trespassing) so you could ignore them.

Now if say a private entity rents the LAKE COUNTY FAIR GROUND (ie. say I do) then I think I do have the right to set whatever rules I want for my event at the LAKE COUNTY FAIR GROUND and can call the police to have you removed from the LAKE COUNTY FAIR GROUND while my event is on-going. & since I don't think you have gone to any of the NWI MEET & SHOOTS I would 4 sure call the police on you at my Pro-Gun event held at the FAIR GROUNDs and have you kicked out.

That is the Indy Colts part of the law.

UPCOMING EVENTS
NWI INGO MEET & SHOOT - JUN/JULY 2011
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...eet_and_shoot_jun_jul_2011_a.html#post1921400

 

[Roadie]

So does the State own the Fairgrounds? If so, then it seems the new law supersedes the old "No Guns at the State Fair" law..

If it isnt State owned, then the old law is still in effect..

Sounds about right?

 

[jedi]

So does the State own the Fairgrounds? If so, then it seems the new law supersedes the old "No Guns at the State Fair" law..

If it isnt State owned, then the old law is still in effect..

Sounds about right?

This thread might help you with that question.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ense/55089-ccw_at_the_indiana_state_fair.html

From that thread I got this...

The Indiana State Fair isn't in the IC, it's governed by Indiana Administrative Code (IAC) Title 80:
Indiana General Assembly - Indiana Register

It does not provide civil penalties or criminal offenses for its policies. It simply states:

(c) Any deadly weapon found in the possession of a person while on the fairgrounds during the annual state fair is subject to
immediate confiscation by law enforcement officers or other persons authorized by the executive director of the state fair commission.
----
& to answer your question I do think the STATE owns the fair grounds so the new law did just wipe out their "policy" given by the IAC! I'm sure its something that none of the legislatures thought about & most likely a test case in the making.

 

[Roadie]

This thread might help you with that question.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ense/55089-ccw_at_the_indiana_state_fair.html

From that thread I got this...

The Indiana State Fair isn't in the IC, it's governed by Indiana Administrative Code (IAC) Title 80:
Indiana General Assembly - Indiana Register

It does not provide civil penalties or criminal offenses for its policies. It simply states:

(c) Any deadly weapon found in the possession of a person while on the fairgrounds during the annual state fair is subject to
immediate confiscation by law enforcement officers or other persons authorized by the executive director of the state fair commission.
----
& to answer your question I do think the STATE owns the fair grounds so the new law did just wipe out their "policy" given by the IAC! I'm sure its something that none of the legislatures thought about & most likely a test case in the making.

Makes sense, thanks for all the legwork!

 

[Hoosierdood]

Well they could but since it's a PUBLIC property and not PRIVATE you don't have to listen (ie. you will NOT be trespassing) so you could ignore them.

This is the what confuses me about carrying at the county fair. The portion of the new law that may have some bearing on this situation is this:

(10) For an event occurring on property leased from a political subdivision or municipal corporation by the promoter or organizer of the event:
(A) the establishment, by the promoter or organizer, at the
promoter's or organizer's own discretion, of rules of conduct or admission upon which attendance at or participation in the event is conditioned; or
(B) the implementation or enforcement of the rules of conduct or admission described in clause (A) by a political subdivision or municipal corporation in connection with the event.

Now, most county fairs are 4-H Fairs. So the question is whether the fairgrounds are still considered public property or if the 4-H organization leases the fairgrounds from the county for that week. If is is leased property they can enforce their own rules. If it is not leased, but is in fact still county owned property, then I can carry.


BTW, I went last night and just covered up. No problems.

 

[jedi]

Now, most county fairs are 4-H Fairs. So the question is whether the fairgrounds are still considered public property or if the 4-H organization leases the fairgrounds from the county for that week. If is is leased property they can enforce their own rules. If it is not leased, but is in fact still county owned property, then I can carry.


BTW, I went last night and just covered up. No problems.

i don't think we have a way of knowing unless we can see the actual paperwork that 4-h gets/done with the county for the fair. does 4-h "pay" to get the fairgrounds?

 

[thompal]

That is the Indy Colts part of the law.

Hmmm, the Colts get public monies, along with Lucas Oil Stadium, and Pacers, and Conseco.

Gosh, that brings up another idea. Since the Pacers AND Colts have both gone on strike for more money, I wonder if the taxpayers are STILL subsidizing them to NOT play their games?

 

[Sgt Rock]

The State DOES indeed own the fairgrounds and they have a strict NO GUN policy but it's an insurance thing. I've been throught his with the Superintendent and that's the story why you must disarm yourself while hundreds of others at the 1500 are armed to the teeth. Of course, THEY shoot themselves at times.

 

[jedi]

Hmmm, the Colts get public monies, along with Lucas Oil Stadium, and Pacers, and Conseco.

Gosh, that brings up another idea. Since the Pacers AND Colts have both gone on strike for more money, I wonder if the taxpayers are STILL subsidizing them to NOT play their games?

You can bet the farm that we will still be subsidizing them even if they don't play because they are on strike fighting over who gets more money.

If you ask me I wish I could cast a spell over the general population to forget and never spend any money on these "professional" sports and not fly anymore. Once all the money dries up I wonder if they would still be fighting.

The State DOES indeed own the fairgrounds and they have a strict NO GUN policy but it's an insurance thing. I've been throught his with the Superintendent and that's the story why you must disarm yourself while hundreds of others at the 1500 are armed to the teeth. Of course, THEY shoot themselves at times.

Well then if the state does own the fairgrounds then per the new law it looks like carry is indeed possible for LTCHs.

 

[Hammerhead]

Unfortunately, the new law that says political subdivisions can't regulate firearms shows where the definition of a "political subdivision" is:

IC 3-5-2-38
"Political subdivision"
Sec. 38. "Political subdivision" means a county, city, town, township, school corporation, public library, local housing authority, fire protection district, public transportation corporation, local building authority, local hospital authority or corporation, local airport authority, special service district, special taxing district, or other type of local governmental corporate entity.

The State isn't listed there. My question is, who writes the administrative code? If it's the state legislature, then they're not local so carry at the State Fair is still off limits.

IANAL, and IDSAAHILN.

 

[finity]

As for the state fair I agree with Hammerhead.

The state is the only government entity that can enact firearm laws. Since the state fair commission is a state entity then the laws pertaining to the state fair grounds in the IAC are not affected by the new laws & are still valid.

As for the countyt fairgrounds, I also agree that you would have to know if the property was publicly or privately owned.

If it is privately owned then they can make RULES against firearms just like any other private entity. The worst that could happen is you get trespassed. The most likely thing is that you just get asked to leave.

If it is publicly owned & leased by a private company then the same rules as above apply. The lessee can make a RULE against having guns at the event & again the worst case is that you get trespassed or just asked to leave.

If it's public & not leased then any local law is void & there's nothing they can do about it...unless they want to be sued for damages.

So overall, the most likely thing is that you will get asked to leave at most. But if they don't see it then how are they going to know you have it in the first place?

 

[ryknoll3]

As for the state fair I agree with Hammerhead.

The state is the only government entity that can enact firearm laws. Since the state fair commission is a state entity then the laws pertaining to the state fair grounds in the IAC are not affected by the new laws & are still valid.

As for the countyt fairgrounds, I also agree that you would have to know if the property was publicly or privately owned.

If it is privately owned then they can make RULES against firearms just like any other private entity. The worst that could happen is you get trespassed. The most likely thing is that you just get asked to leave.

If it is publicly owned & leased by a private company then the same rules as above apply. The lessee can make a RULE against having guns at the event & again the worst case is that you get trespassed or just asked to leave.

If it's public & not leased then any local law is void & there's nothing they can do about it...unless they want to be sued for damages.

So overall, the most likely thing is that you will get asked to leave at most. But if they don't see it then how are they going to know you have it in the first place?

I was curious about this with the DNR ranges. Could they, in theory by administrative rule require shooters at the range to still have an LTCH since they are a state-level department?

 

[finity]

I was curious about this with the DNR ranges. Could they, in theory by administrative rule require shooters at the range to still have an LTCH since they are a state-level department?

I'd say that they could enact rules to govern the use of their property but since the law specifically states that you don't need a LTCH to use a range then I would think that the IC would override any "rules" that they might come up with.

Also, the commission has to have legislative authority to enact any rules. They can't just come up with ANY arbitrary rule that they want, though sometimes that "authority" tends to be fairly broad.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Lets see no GUNS on State Fair grounds during the August Fair each year due to INSURANCE restrictions says the ISP commissioner..............but its OK during INDY1500 Gun and Crap show weekends?

Go figure.