What is a gun?

[cedartop]

Good short article by Todd. Of course I think it is good because I happen to agree.

pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » What Is a Gun?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Until people point what they think is an airsoft or blue gun at someone and put a new hole in them.

We've seen it over and over, I thought it was a plastic gun so I waz pointing it at him 'cause EYE been around guns all MEYE life and . . . *BLAM* sorry, Cledus.

 

[cedartop]

Somehow I knew where you would be at on this Kirk.

 

[ModernGunner]

Have to agree with cedartop on this one.

If someone doesn't know the difference between a real gun and a blue gun, etc., they should be permanently prohibited from handling either.

 

[esrice]

This is why I prefer "treat all guns as if they are loaded" as opposed to "all guns are always loaded". One of those is a false statement.

Now, I do believe that we should handle blue guns and "training guns" the same way we treat live weapons. Fingers off triggers, pointed in a safe direction. Training gun doesn't equal "toy gun". If we're going to be using it to learn transferable skills, then we need to treat it like the real thing. If we don't, then the skills we are transferring are going to be poor.

Obviously we use blue guns and simunition-type guns in FoF (I was just using them in a class earlier today). But even then, we are keeping our fingers off the trigger until we've made the decision to shoot, and we aren't pointing them at things we aren't willing to "destroy". When someone points a loaded UTM Glock 17T at another living breathing human being it's because he's made the conscious decision to shoot that person. The only difference is that it's done within the confines of a training environment where no one is actually killed.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If someone doesn't know the difference between a real gun and a blue gun, etc., they should be permanently prohibited from handling either.

This does not help the person that was shot.

How about we not point guns at people a la Rule #2?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This does not help the person that was shot.

How about we not point guns at people a la Rule #2?

Then how can we do force on force/simunition training?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

That was not the theme of the article but lots of people get shot for real while doing "sims".

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That was not the theme of the article but lots of people get shot for real while doing "sims".

Ah, maybe I misunderstood what he meant by "blue gun" then. Since our simunition guns are blue I thought that was what he was referencing.

Definitely have to be careful, our sims are verified by at least 3 people prior to use and no one who is shooting live is allowed to assist in any way.

 

[amhenry]

I agree entirely with the article. I own lots of bluguns (I'm a holster maker) as well as a SIRT. FOF changed the way I practice and train, and the blueguns have been a tremendously useful training tool for me.

Always treating them exactly as I would treat a live firearm defeats the entire purpose of the bluegun. It provides safety to learn and improve.

 

[Coach]

Always treating them exactly as I would treat a live firearm defeats the entire purpose of the bluegun. It provides safety to learn and improve.

Exactly. No one has ever been shot with a bluegun.

 

[riverman67]

I believe that the reason blue guns were invented was to have something to use in the training environment for demonstrations that was incapable of firing.
They prevent bad things from happening with "unloaded" guns. Like the you tube video that we have all seen of the police officer shooting himself in leg right after stating that he was the only one in the room qualified to handle a firearm.
I have one and I use it to practice unfamiliar operations,one hand gun manipulations come to mind or practicing draws from a new concealment holster.
FOF is a different animal,every FOF class that I have attended has a "disarm and get checked by the instructor" segment at the very beginning.After getting rid of all "real"
weapons the class then proceeds to arm themselves with training knives and guns.
I think all the rules should be followed during FOF because we are trying to simulate a real life encounter.

 

[esrice]

Always treating them exactly as I would treat a live firearm defeats the entire purpose of the bluegun. It provides safety to learn and improve.

Exactly. No one has ever been shot with a bluegun.

Can you provide some example of what you're suggesting? Under what circumstances would you handle a blue gun differently than a live one?

 

[Coach]

Can you provide some example of what you're suggesting? Under what circumstances would you handle a blue gun differently than a live one?

It is not a gun. All circumstances.

I can demonstrate proper grip and have the class do it and we can be in the classroom. I can step around to the other side and not have to go behind.

Weapons retention drills.

I can do transitions drills in the living room and people can be in the other room.

I can practice transitioning the gun from right to left hand and do it anywhere. Show the border shift and what not to do with a semi-auto.

I can do a safety briefing and show 19 different ways that I have seen people sweep their hands, arms and legs that they did not think counted as sweeping.

In short I have a blue,gray, orange piece of plastic that is not a gun that is a valuable training tool, and prevents me from violating the four rules of gun safety.

 

[rsklar]

In New Jersey a single bullet can be prosecuted as having a Firearm

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Exactly. No one has ever been shot with a bluegun.

Lots of people have been shot with what they assumed were "non-guns", even at big name schools.

In my opinion, and only my opinion as a student, not an instructor and definitely not a teacher, that the hunk of plastic is not the problem. It is the habituation that is the problem.

"The rules do not apply to me" becomes a habit, becomes a bad habit, becomes a very bad habit when another is shot.

I prefer the Four Rules light always being on. JMTC.

 

[David Rose]

Can you provide some example of what you're suggesting? Under what circumstances would you handle a blue gun differently than a live one?

Demonstrating how to properly use cover, retention and disarming, using the a firearm as an impact weapon, scenario training in areas inappropriate for air soft or marking cartridges, as an instructor any time you want the student to get a 360 view of a technique or drill.

Also, a lot of people are hesitant to dry fire with a real gun, a non-gun analog is an excellent way to ease into dry fire practice without the safety concerns of using a real gun.

 

[Coach]

Lots of people have been shot with what they assumed were "non-guns", even at big name schools.

In my opinion, and only my opinion as a student, not an instructor and definitely not a teacher, that the hunk of plastic is not the problem. It is the habituation that is the problem.

"The rules do not apply to me" becomes a habit, becomes a bad habit, becomes a very bad habit when another is shot.

I prefer the Four Rules light always being on. JMTC.

Gun people should not be running on habit mindlessly all the time, or at all. I am not saying they should not have good habits and good gunhandling skills in addition to good tactics and good marksmanship skills. But they should be capable of concious thought and common sense.

All guns are always loaded is a great example. But a bluegun is not capable of firing and it is not a gun. I must look, think and know if I am dealing with a bluegun or not.

So with the Four Rules light always being on you are against Force on Force and simunitions as well as blueguns? Because you cannot really do Force on Force and obey the Four rules. You are really not willing to destroy the role players but you are shooting them.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Gun people should not be running on habit mindlessly all the time, or at all.

I agree wholeheartedly but unfortunately we know this happens. This is why we have the shootings with "non-guns".

So, what do you advise for a "decontamination" process to go from or to Force on Force scenarios? What do you guys do?

 

[rhino]

I agree wholeheartedly but unfortunately we know this happens. This is why we have the shootings with "non-guns".

So, what do you advise for a "decontamination" process to go from or to Force on Force scenarios? What do you guys do?

Anyone participating in the drills or scenarios completely disarms and searched (twice). Everything like guns, knives, keys, etc. is either locked in vehicles or stuffed in bags or boxes that are not handled until we're done.

I agree with Coach. Inert training replicas are not guns and I feel no obligation to treat them as if they are guns. I do make sure that what I am handling is an inert replica though, and I usually make a point to telling the students and allowing them to examine it if they wish.

For some things I've dismantled cheap airsoft guns because they have moving parts that are useful for demonstration. The 1911 I have is transparent and I've removed the firing mechanism from both the gun and the the feeding parts in the magazines. I did the same to an M4-alike. I also make sure students know they are not functional for firing any kind of projectile and allow examination if they choose.