We Are Our Own Worst Enemy

[curraheeguns]

Sorry if this has already been posted. I know a couple of these guys.



Gun Show Undercover: The Investigation

 

[swatdoc]

Project of the City of New York. Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg. Copyright 2009.

Paid for in full by billionaire Bloomberg to further his crusade against private ownership of firearms.

 

[Disposable Heart]

We have met the enemy, it is us....

I hate to see this stuff. The panic, while subsiding, really makes me think how many guns got to folks that should not have gotten them. In Indiana, while someone cant go into a store without a background check (maybe unless Don's Guns ) and get a gun, but they can buy FTF privately. Gun shows DO have a loophole IMHO. You are a criminal. You show up to a gunshow. You dont have to do a background check to get a gun from someone walking around with a sign for an AK on their back. You do have to pay 10 bucks at the door, but that won't separate the criminals.

We should really be more careful who we sell to. Especially lately: The recession and panic at the same time means folks selling guns to anyone they can (lost job, need cash, slow selling market due to others losing their job, so anyone will do in a pinch) or panic buying (unscrupulous dealers or private sellers seeing dollar signs in their eyes). I like INGO becauase we generally know one another, but other places like Hoosier Topics, folks really need to watch themselves, as there are no checks there to keep bad guys from becoming armed.

 

[femurphy77]

Blah blah blah. Depending on how the phrase "I probably couldn't pass a check anyway" is delivered a dealer could easily pass it off as an statement made in jest. However if a man tells you he is a private seller and then says he has sold 348 of the same type weapon in the last year then he probably isn't selling his "collection". Agreed anyone can buy at gunshows but don't know the answer. Entertaining how Herr Bloomberg is perpetrating a crime here but nobody seems to be noticing this!

 

[UltraRick]

We have met the enemy, it is us....

I hate to see this stuff. The panic, while subsiding, really makes me think how many guns got to folks that should not have gotten them. In Indiana, while someone cant go into a store without a background check (maybe unless Don's Guns ) and get a gun, but they can buy FTF privately. Gun shows DO have a loophole IMHO. You are a criminal. You show up to a gunshow. You dont have to do a background check to get a gun from someone walking around with a sign for an AK on their back. You do have to pay 10 bucks at the door, but that won't separate the criminals.

We should really be more careful who we sell to. Especially lately: The recession and panic at the same time means folks selling guns to anyone they can (lost job, need cash, slow selling market due to others losing their job, so anyone will do in a pinch) or panic buying (unscrupulous dealers or private sellers seeing dollar signs in their eyes). I like INGO becauase we generally know one another, but other places like Hoosier Topics, folks really need to watch themselves, as there are no checks there to keep bad guys from becoming armed.

Well said

 

[MeltonLaw]

There are serious issues with investigations such as this. Yes it is seemingly true that a criminal could go in and buy a weapon from a private seller. But, unless and until, the private seller has knowledge of the criminal past of the buyer he has no moral or criminal obligation. The truth is that the felon in possession laws are simply not enough of a deterrent to keep these felons from repeating. There was a study done by the DoJ, I believe, in 1997-98 that only ~2% of firearms used in crimes came from gunshows.
The real issue that I see as far as a loophole is concerned is 4th/14th property right. One of the sticks in the bundle of sticks that comprise property rights is how you can dispose of that property. Forcing a private person into running to and paying a FFL to sell their firearm to another private entity would put a large burden on that right.

 

[Disposable Heart]

The real issue that I see as far as a loophole is concerned is 4th/14th property right. One of the sticks in the bundle of sticks that comprise property rights is how you can dispose of that property. Forcing a private person into running to and paying a FFL to sell their firearm to another private entity would put a large burden on that right.

I agree with you on the ownership concept, but I just see a different viewpoint...

Criminals are getting smart. I understand there are laws already on the books, however, they aren't saving any lives. The guns used in crimes, coming from a shop, gun show, private sell, or similar areas doesn't matter. They are being attained (either through cash or theft) and used. While a small percentage of them are being bought at gunshows, they ARE BEING USED! One, two , 500 lives that could potentially be saved is more than enough reason. I will catch alot of flak from that, I know. I just believe in the idea that we should have to go through an FFL for the transaction. I would prefer it.

Good solution? Not really. Thus the reason I am split on it. If the person is psycho, they can hold it in long enough to get the gun then kill. Most of the mass murders I have seen involving guns were ones legally bought, they went through the loop holes and waited. A psychotic can wait and will wait to get that extra advantage in their spree. But the gunshow "loophole" or private sell loophole in some states being closed will prevent criminals from LEGALLY (in the sense of that it's okay for the seller under the guise of "unknowingly) getting a gun. Enforce existing crimes, but also improve the existing laws to make sense. Bans on "assault" type weapons are asinine. Bans on selling guns to folks outright, no background check, no nothing may have some merit. Whats an extra 10-20 bucks for an FFL transfer when one is already spending hundreds? Rights? Maybe. We would be giving up the right to free ownership, however, would I want a gun I sold someone privately being used in a multiple homicide? No. Would I want a gun I sold be sold to a multiple offender (no matter how "good" he is)? No.

Call me liberal, call me communist, call me what you want. But do call me cautious...

 

[Lost Californian]

Until the American public is willing to take back personal responsibility for their actions, in ALL AREAS, there is no law that will suffice to make the public "safe" from itself.

Ignore that point, and all the rest is howling of wolves, herding sheep.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Until the American public is willing to take back personal responsibility for their actions, in ALL AREAS, there is no law that will suffice to make the public "safe" from itself.

Ignore that point, and all the rest is howling of wolves, herding sheep.

Right on the money... Repped for that...

 

[varasha]

I like Indiana's laws on not needing an ffl for a face to face long gun sale, i don't have any real proof but in my opionon most crimes involving guns are pistols and not rifles. So maybe if we made pistols a little harder to get we could prevent at least some crimes. I don't really care much, i avoid getting in trouble so i won't have any issues with a background check..:P

 

[Leadeye]

I suspect the debate over freedom/responsiblity/public safety will never really end. How safe can you really be, and how much freedom are you willing to exchange for that safety? When you exchange it how much safety have you really purchased? Leadership says that if you ban certain things it may save lives. I remember when a local town wanted to ban ice cream trucks, the logic being that it was worth it if it saved one child's life. Worth the freedom lost? One thing to remember is that the poor folks working in the world trade center had given up a lot of freedom to work there and they really were no safer than if they were any place else. There are no guarantees in life, we just get through it and try to enjoy our time as best we can.

 

[Bisley Man]

The "gun show" loophole is private sales, period.And when the" gun show" loophole is closed, see how easy it is to loan your shotgun to cousin John next rabbit season. Or to give your 44 Mag sixgun to your grandson for Christmas because your arthritis won't let you shoot it. That's right, when this BIG "loophole" is CLOSED forever,(ask a Brit) you can't legally SELL, GIVE, or LOAN ANY firearm without the consent and permission of His Majesty's Government! You'll have to go to an FFL (IF YOU'RE LUCKY) and fill out the forms and make the call to even loan your gun to a trusted relative. Be careful what you wish for, like Curraheeguns said, we're our own worst enemy .

 

[DRob]

"Gun show loophole"

The alleged "gun show loophole" is just a matter of proximity. Whether it's a gun show or some street corner, guys who want to buy a gun without having a background check done are going to find a seller.

The same proximity is what makes gun shows go. Sellers gather at a location and the buyers flock to them because it's a one-stop shop. Easy for everybody. Everything from guns to chocolate covered raisins! Maybe some FFL should just set up a table and do nothing but transfers and background checks on private FTF sales at the show. You wanta' sell a gun, go this guy's table. Buyers would know where to find the sellers. Inconvenient? Maybe so but everybody would know the deal up front. I assume any seller could insist that the transaction go through an FFL. Just sorta' thinking out loud here.

 

[tharlow514]

The "gun show" loophole is private sales, period.And when the" gun show" loophole is closed, see how easy it is to loan your shotgun to cousin John next rabbit season. Or to give your 44 Mag sixgun to your grandson for Christmas because your arthritis won't let you shoot it. That's right, when this BIG "loophole" is CLOSED forever,(ask a Brit) you can't legally SELL, GIVE, or LOAN ANY firearm without the consent and permission of His Majesty's Government! You'll have to go to an FFL (IF YOU'RE LUCKY) and fill out the forms and make the call to even loan your gun to a trusted relative. Be careful what you wish for, like Curraheeguns said, we're our own worst enemy .

I agree. And when the next big gun ban comes around banning all "assault rifles" you won't be able to give that gun to your son or grandson legally. Banning private sales would be one of the worst things to happen to gun owners IMO. There are more laws on the books now than ever before yet criminals still obtain guns and they will regardless.

 

[Bisley Man]

Another topic of discusion in the NYC video is the guy selling 348 sks's. Don't you have to have an FFL to sell that many? Close THAT "loophole" with the laws ALREADY on the books. You need an FFL if your main business is selling hundreds of guns a year. Right?

 

[Cain71]

If your concise tells you that you can not sell your guns without a background check than by all means find you a FFL holder,have them run the check and make the sale. many will do it for you all you have to do is show up and pay the 15 or 20 dollars,in all likley hood if you make this offer and the buyer does not want to your decision has been made,don't sell the gun. Take responsibilty and it is that easy.

 

[Gaudard]

OR...

They could make it easier for the rest of us to get some type of FFL and we could do our own NCIS when selling.

Require checks to be done at gunshows for all sales, some type of NCIS table... for free?

 

[Cain71]

Gaudard,nothing is free unless you are in the government.

 

[clfergus]

I am under the belief that there is probably more criminal actions done each day by illegal aliens who have entered into this country than criminals who buy guns at shows and FTF. Maybe Bloomburg should spend some money researching how many illegals are committing murders, rapes, drugs trafficing in west/southwest. I guarantee more innocent people are hurt and that is more costly than this.

I agree those idiots shouldn't sell to a guy who says he cant pass a background check but I think we have other issues that are more important.

 

[mrjarrell]

Personally, I don't ever want to see the day when I am required to obtain permission from the government to sell my justly acquired property. No-one else should want that either. If they can do it to your guns then they can danged sure do it where your car or anything else that's your is concerned. Do you want back ground checks for yard sales? Or to sell off some excess tomatoes from the garden? There is such a thing as a slippery slope and government exemplifies it. Every time they've been given an inch they take a yard. Where firearms are concerned I'm not willing to give them one more centimetre. Not one. I'd support the black market if that ever came to pass, criminals or no.