Virginia Tech Lawsuit...long, but a good read

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  • Indy317

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    Well, two families have filed lawsuits against Virginia Tech and others in reference to the mass killing that happened a couple years back. There was a state settlement and when I did the math, everyone who took it ended up with around $350K. The two lawsuits are asking for $10,000,000.00, which I think is actually pretty low considering the Ball State shooting lawsuit was $100M, then during trial opening statements they asked for around $50M, then at closing they asked for about half that amount.

    I have downloaded the lawsuits and read the portions which I find interesting, those that claim VaTech and its officials of gross negligence. This is long but if these accusations are true, I don't know why others accepted the settlement. I can easily see how the officials at VaTech tried to "manage" the message. The simple fact is that there was an armed person on the loose, reguardless of if they thought it was the girls boyfriend or not, he was not in custody and could be anywhere. I also find it sickening that the upper admin had their building put on lock-down (and someone from the vet school was likely part of this emergency group and had that building put on lockdown. If there was no danger, why go into lockdown? If there was enough danger for a lockdown, then the entire school should have closed and went into lockdown). There is a part I didn't include. It talks about how in two weeks, VaTech was having a huge fundraising gala in an effort to raise over a billion dollars. While the people lay dead in the building, one of the organizers of the fundraiser actually sent an e-mail saying that while this incident will have ramifications, they could use it to help drive donations.

    Here are the bullet points:

    #1: On or about 08:00 a.m. on April 16, 2007, President Steger called for the convening of the university’s Emergency Policy Group. Why the 40 minute delay in doing so is unknown. (My text: The first two kids were shot around 0715, with notifications to many officials sent out shortly thereafter.)

    #2: Ample time then remained in which to cancel 09:00 a.m. classes and all other classes until the gunman was captured or the campus otherwise cleared of this clear and present danger.

    #3: At that time President Steger or his deputy, Executive Vice-President Hyatt had full authority to order and/or issue an alert and warning to the student body and university faculty of the events which had transpired at West Ambler Johnston Hall and warn that the gunman was still at large, presumably armed and dangerous, and might still be on campus, but elected not to do so.

    #4: As the time for cancelling 09:00 a.m. classes was approaching neither the Virginia Tech Police Department nor the members of the Emergency Policy Group, including these named defendants, had any information of the killer’s identity or whereabouts.

    #5: In anticipation that the killer was still on campus and posed a clear and present danger to the safety of students and faculty, Wendell Flinchum, the Chief of Police for the Virginia Tech Police Department, initially ordered the assembly of the Emergency Response Team (ERT, a/k/a SWAT) at 8:15 a.m. For reasons unrelated to the safety of students and faculty, Defendant Flinchum thereafter ordered the Emergency Response Team to stage at the Blacksburg Police Department, not the Virginia Tech Police Department. Upon information and belief, the Emergency Response Team, was staged at the Blacksburg Police Department out of concern that its staging on campus could adversely impact the university’s image as a safe place for students and faculty. In the alternative, Defendant Flinchum, was ordered or directed to stage the Emergency Response Team off campus by the Emergency Policy Group or some of its members, probably Defendants Steger, Hyatt, Hincker and Byers out of concern about the university’s image. By staging the Emergency Response Team off campus and by failing to invoke those portions of its mutual aid agreement under which additional law enforcement officers and agencies would respond to the campus to establish a police presence, the deterrent effect of an on campus police presence was lost.

    #6: A simple, factually correct message that at 7:15 a.m. there had been a homicide in West Ambler Johnston Hall, a second student had been critically wounded and the gunman was still at large and was presumably armed and dangerous was rejected by the Emergency Policy Group on the urgings of its “image group.” The Emergency Policy Group was divided into roughly two camps, one camp, hereinafter called the “safety group”, was desirous of adhering to prior university policy of warning the faculty and student body about the risk of harm as soon as reasonably practical, and to do so by telling the truth, and a second group, hereinafter called the “image group” made up of the Defendants Steger, Hyatt, Hinckle and Byers, Ford and McNamee also called the control group who wanted to “manage the message” in the way least damaging to the university’s image as they saw that image.

    #7: Those in the Emergency Policy Group “safety group” wanted the campus alerted and warned of the threat and proposed that the campus be advised that there had been a homicide in West Ambler Johnston Hall around 7:15 that morning, that another student had been critically wounded and was not expected to survive, that no gun had been found at the scene and the gunman was at large and presumably armed and dangerous. Upon information and belief, the “safety group” also recommended that further classes be cancelled pending resolution of this crisis.

    #8: At or about 08:45 a.m., as a result of the negligence of certain officers in the VTPD, members of the Emergency Policy Group were erroneously alerted that there was a chance the double shooting might have been a domestic dispute in the nature of a lovers triangle. The image group was seduced by the ability to control the message of the university’s image if the incident was a domestic incident and the suspect, Karl Thornhill, Emily Hilscher’s boyfriend, was promptly apprehended and his hands or his apparel tested positive for gunpowder residue, the “image group” could then depict the 07:15 incident for what it thought it might be, a domestic incident, and declare it closed with the apprehension of the presumed killer.

    #9: At 09:26 a.m., after Seung-Hui Cho had returned to campus, the Emergency Policy Group issued an alert which said: “A shooting incident occurred at West Ambler Johnston this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating. The university community is urged to be cautious and are asked to contact Virginia Tech Police if you observe anything suspicious or with information on the case.” The alert did not constitute a warning. While it urged the university community to be cautious, about what should it be cautions - a shooting incident of undescribed nature, which made no mention of any injuries, let alone a double homicide? The alert made no mention that the gunman who had already killed two people was still at large, that he [or she, for that matter] might still be on campus, that he or she was presumably still armed and potentially dangerous, and that students, faculty and employees should take all precautions for their own safety and that classes and all extra-curricular activities were being cancelled until further notice. As an inadequate warning, it constituted no warning at all, and in a sense artificially reassured the students, faculty and employees that whatever occurred in West Ambler Johnston Hall that morning was of much lesser consequences and risks than the Morva incident and the two recent threatened bombings on the engineering campus. The language, content and lack of specificity of the alert clearly implied that there was no reason to take any specific action for one’s own safety.

    #10: Before 09:00 a.m. Byers notified his administrative assistant to lock their doors. Mr. Byers was then meeting with the Emergency Policy Group in an office in the Burrus building on the same floor with his office that he had just directed be locked down. Upon information and belief at that time and place Burrus Hall, the administration office building, was locked down. Another member of the Emergency Policy Group, Kim O’Rourke, staff assistant to President Steger, had called her home and recommended that her child stay inside. The university’s veterinary school went into lockdown. Seung-Hui Cho’s route of travel back from the Blacksburg Post Office to Norris Hall where he shot and killed 30 people took him directly past Burrus Hall, whose occupants were safe because, armed with the knowledge of the risks involved, they had gone to lockdown. Passing by Burrus Hall, which he could not enter, Seung-Hui Cho arrived at Norris Hall, which was unprotected because neither the students nor faculty in Norris Hall had been warned that a gunman was loose, perhaps on campus.
     

    bigg cheese

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    I'm probably in the minority on this ( I know I am among my IRL peers ).

    Compensation for lost life is a bunch of bull. It's people trying to put a dollar amount on a God-given life.

    Was the staff negligent? There's evidence to support it. But is it really so clear-cut that the accusers would have done differently? Hind-sight is always an unfair playing field. These guys have to live with the fact that their (alleged) inaction allowed more people to die.

    I understand that people want to make others "pay attention" and the only way they may see to do that is to hurt them monetarily. It's not a novel idea, and it often doesn't have the desired effect.

    IMHO, the school is morally obligated to do their best to provide a safe educational evironment, but as we all know, there can be no guarantees, and morality does not coincide with law. Even the Emergency Policy Group is a purely gratis institution that was created by the school. Law doesn't require them to have one. (least not as far as I know)

    What I can see occurring is the school putting other (expensive) measures in place like Columbine where they have metal detectors at the entrances.

    Those costs would be directly transferred to the future students. Why would plaintiffs want to make it more expensive for students to get a better education?

    I cringe almost every time I hear how a plaintiff got their "revenge" money from an organization.

    I do want to stick a caveat in here as well. I'm not saying that criminal cases should not be pursued, but suing for personal gain is out.

    There are cases where suing is a right thing to do (such as the wife of an employee getting killed by faulty equipment on the job), but this is not one of those cases.

    If you are having dinner at my house, and a mad-man tries to kill you, I see myself as having a Moral obligation to defend you. However, I don't have a Legal obligation to do so. We all have morality in one sense or another, but the law is what we definitively have in common.

    I guess this is a word to the wise to choose your company carefully.
     

    IndyGunworks

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    I'm probably in the minority on this ( I know I am among my IRL peers ).

    Compensation for lost life is a bunch of bull. It's people trying to put a dollar amount on a God-given life.

    Was the staff negligent? There's evidence to support it. But is it really so clear-cut that the accusers would have done differently? Hind-sight is always an unfair playing field. These guys have to live with the fact that their (alleged) inaction allowed more people to die.

    I understand that people want to make others "pay attention" and the only way they may see to do that is to hurt them monetarily. It's not a novel idea, and it often doesn't have the desired effect.

    IMHO, the school is morally obligated to do their best to provide a safe educational evironment, but as we all know, there can be no guarantees, and morality does not coincide with law. Even the Emergency Policy Group is a purely gratis institution that was created by the school. Law doesn't require them to have one. (least not as far as I know)

    What I can see occurring is the school putting other (expensive) measures in place like Columbine where they have metal detectors at the entrances.

    Those costs would be directly transferred to the future students. Why would plaintiffs want to make it more expensive for students to get a better education?

    I cringe almost every time I hear how a plaintiff got their "revenge" money from an organization.

    I do want to stick a caveat in here as well. I'm not saying that criminal cases should not be pursued, but suing for personal gain is out.

    There are cases where suing is a right thing to do (such as the wife of an employee getting killed by faulty equipment on the job), but this is not one of those cases.

    If you are having dinner at my house, and a mad-man tries to kill you, I see myself as having a Moral obligation to defend you. However, I don't have a Legal obligation to do so. We all have morality in one sense or another, but the law is what we definitively have in common.

    I guess this is a word to the wise to choose your company carefully.


    i agree with you for the most part on this.
     

    Joe Williams

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    snip

    There are cases where suing is a right thing to do (such as the wife of an employee getting killed by faulty equipment on the job), but this is not one of those cases.

    If you are having dinner at my house, and a mad-man tries to kill you, I see myself as having a Moral obligation to defend you. However, I don't have a Legal obligation to do so. We all have morality in one sense or another, but the law is what we definitively have in common.

    I guess this is a word to the wise to choose your company carefully.

    The school chose to prohibit the students and teachers from having effective means to defend themselves. They accepted responsibility for the safety of everyone on their campus when they did so. Further, the level of self serving incompetence on behalf of VT administrators in this particular case is truly stunning. If a wife is entitled to money when injured by faulty equipment, I'm unable to follow your reasoning as to why family members shouldn't be entitled to similar relief when their loved ones are killed as the result of actions by faulty administrators. Yeah, this might make it more expensive for students in the future. If it's too expensive, the school will suffer the further penalty of seeing potential students go elsewhere. They will get to serve as a warning to other administrators who may feel an urge to protect themselves, while leaving students they've disarmed and rendered helpless twisting in the wind.
     

    antsi

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    The school chose to prohibit the students and teachers from having effective means to defend themselves. They accepted responsibility for the safety of everyone on their campus when they did so.

    I tend to agree with this.

    If we're all grown ups and responsible for ourselves, then I'm responsible for myself.

    If you're going to annoint yourself Big Nanny and coercively remove my ability to take care of myself, then you're responsible.
     

    bigg cheese

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    I think I see the disconnect here.

    What law says that if an organization says "no firearms," they have accepted legal responsibility for their protection?

    Moral obligation? Probably. But Legal obligation?

    My example of the wife of the employee who died denotes a company whose equipment clearly fell outside of the law. OSHA requires that equipment be in good working order for it to be used. The spouse will likely be compensated before any lawsuit begins. Employers often have life-insurance policies on their employees that will be paid to the estate -- a contractual, and therefore legally binding agreement.

    If there was no insurance policy, then a spouse suing would be a right action, because the business has prevented that individual from maintaining a certain lifestyle (kind of like a divorce proceeding where the breadwinner is often required to allow the other the ability to maintain a certain scale of living.)
     

    jeremy

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    The only then I see wrong with this civil suit is I think it is entirely to low of a number. VT chose to be responsible for the lives of the students there.
     

    Buckaroo

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    The school chose to prohibit the students and teachers from having effective means to defend themselves. They accepted responsibility for the safety of everyone on their campus when they did so. Further, the level of self serving incompetence on behalf of VT administrators in this particular case is truly stunning. If a wife is entitled to money when injured by faulty equipment, I'm unable to follow your reasoning as to why family members shouldn't be entitled to similar relief when their loved ones are killed as the result of actions by faulty administrators. Yeah, this might make it more expensive for students in the future. If it's too expensive, the school will suffer the further penalty of seeing potential students go elsewhere. They will get to serve as a warning to other administrators who may feel an urge to protect themselves, while leaving students they've disarmed and rendered helpless twisting in the wind.

    +1 (Bold added by me)

    Buckaroo
     

    jeremy

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    Bigg they took away everyone's basic right to defend ones life. If you are going to prohibit someone from being able to successfully defend their life then you should be held accountable for that fact.
     

    bigg cheese

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    I don't disagree with you.

    However, as a nation of laws, we must abide within them if we are to use it to receive compensation.

    Will someone please answer the question I posed?

    What law says that if an organization says "no firearms," they have accepted legal responsibility for their protection?

    If there is no law on the books, then by all means get one on it.

    By going to a school that clearly states "no firearms," then you personally are taking a risk, the same way that I do when my wife and I go see the Indiana Ice. We might be hit in the face with a puck. I've seen it happen not 4 seats away from me. (at least he won a pizza for catching it with his nose :)... poor guy :) )
     

    abrumlev

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    The way I understand the situation would be negligence is being punished punitively. The families chose to sue the school to punish them. The thing is if the damages were actually punitive (punishment) then it would have been paid to the state, fed government...etc. But those families deserve something...whether money being traded for life is immoral or very wrong....what else are the families going to receive? They lost their kids in a tragic situation and do they not deserve anything?

    Giving human life an amount is ridiculous but receiving damages isn't.
     

    antsi

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    By going to a school that clearly states "no firearms," then you personally are taking a risk

    The vast majority of universities have this policy.

    It's fine to say "take your business elsewhere" - but in this case, there is no 'elsewhere.'

    What law says that if an organization says "no firearms," they have accepted legal responsibility for their protection?

    There is no such law I am aware of. However, it is not necessary in a civil suit for the defendant (respondent?) to have broken the law. If they impose a policy that causes harm to others, they can be held responsible for their actions.
     

    Indy317

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    Will someone please answer the question I posed?

    What law says that if an organization says "no firearms," they have accepted legal responsibility for their protection?

    By going to a school that clearly states "no firearms," then you personally are taking a risk, the same way that I do when my wife and I go see the Indiana Ice.

    I am in the minority here, but I don't think VaTech was at fault when they banned _adults_ from carrying weapons onto their property. The adults _choose_ to attend the school, knowing they could have weapons. Where I do find fault at VaTech is when the higher ups protected themselves and let everyone else be at risk. I do think that there is somewhat of a responsibility of an entity, public or private, to mitigate danger as best as possible. VaTech had ample time to cancel classes, notifiy people, and beef up a police response. Instead, they did the exact opposite. Day in and day out, most students accepted the no firearms rule, but would they have done that knowing an armed person was recently on campus property?

    The vast majority of universities have this policy.

    It's fine to say "take your business elsewhere" - but in this case, there is no 'elsewhere.'.

    There is always an "elsewhere." There are a few colleges in Montana that have allowed students to keep their weapons in their own dorm room. Can they carry them? I am not sure. However, if you don't like it, don't go to college. There is an out to everything. Also, there are now states that mandate colleges and universities observe the permits of that state. So now there are many "elsewhere"s.
     

    bigg cheese

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    There is no such law I am aware of. However, it is not necessary in a civil suit for the defendant (respondent?) to have broken the law. If they impose a policy that causes harm to others, they can be held responsible for their actions.

    Indirectly maybe, but they did not impose a policy such as, "All students must walk barefoot through the Lava Lake Hallway." Make no mistake. The shooter caused the harm. Yes, school policy disarmed the populace, but they allowed themselves to be disarmed.

    It almost feels like there is a need to blame someone to get recompense, and even though the shooter is dead, someone is out for blood money.

    Again, I too disagree with the way it was handled. My contention is the way that it should be handled within the confines of the law.
     

    Joe Williams

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    Indirectly maybe, but they did not impose a policy such as, "All students must walk barefoot through the Lava Lake Hallway." Make no mistake. The shooter caused the harm. Yes, school policy disarmed the populace, but they allowed themselves to be disarmed.

    It almost feels like there is a need to blame someone to get recompense, and even though the shooter is dead, someone is out for blood money.

    Again, I too disagree with the way it was handled. My contention is the way that it should be handled within the confines of the law.

    It IS being handled within the confines of civil law.
     

    bigg cheese

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    I did not disagree with the law :)

    My contention is the way that it should be handled within the confines of the law.

    However, knowing I'd be in the minority, I've made my contribution and thus ends my involvement in this thread :)
     

    antsi

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    There is always an "elsewhere." There are a few colleges in Montana that have allowed students to keep their weapons in their own dorm room. Can they carry them? I am not sure. However, if you don't like it, don't go to college. There is an out to everything. Also, there are now states that mandate colleges and universities observe the permits of that state. So now there are many "elsewhere"s.

    You are talking about a government run institution that receives funding from taxpayers. I know the argument that private property owners can impose restrictions on their own property and within certain parameters I agree with it. But Virginia Tech is not private property; it is a government agency. If Virgina Tech can violate people's constitional rights, there is nothing to stop the Highway Department from saying you can't RKBA on the roads. Don't like it? Walk through open country. The city can prohibit CCW on sidewalks. Don't like it? Don't go to the city. The County can prohibit CCW when crossing any bridges, roadside easements, or drainage ditches. Don't like it? Stay at home.

    Of course there are always alternatives, but if you allow government agencies to prohibit the free exercise of rights by policy whenever and wherever they like, you are soon left with no rights at all.

    By the same token, Stalin wasn't violating anybody's rights by murdering the political opposition. After all, they didn't have to oppose his policies. If you don't like being murdered, just agree with Stalin. It's a perfectly reasonable alternative, right?
     
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