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  • hornadylnl

    Shooter
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    Just found these articles online. It looks like we get to subsidize the poor, downtrodden, and irresponsibles bank accounts now. How are bank fees not going to go up to cover this crap?

    Jconline - Programs help 'unbanked' avoid high fees
    Programs help 'unbanked' avoid high feesUpdated 11/5/2009 8:25 AM ETBy Martha T. Moore, USA TODAY
    Dozens of cities are launching programs to sign up low-income people as customers at commercial banks so they can avoid the high fees typical of check-cashing stores and payday lenders.
    More than 50 cities and at least three states now have programs modeled on the 3-year-old Bank On San Francisco.
    The programs — including Indiana's, launched last week, and Newark's, which began Monday — are aimed at the estimated 8.7 million American households that do not have bank accounts. Bank On programs encourage residents to open low- or no-cost checking accounts.
    Participating banks and credit unions must offer "second chance" accounts for customers who have bounced checks in the past, and accept identification besides Social Security numbers, such as taxpayer identification numbers.
    "We wanted to open up access to the financial mainstream," says Leigh Phillips of Bank On San Francisco, which has opened 41,000 accounts since 2006. "We do think we've made a pretty significant impact."
    CHALLENGES: Banks reach out to cities' low-income residentsPeople who don't use banks spend an estimated $1,042 a year on check-cashing services, which charge a percentage of the value of the check, according to a study by the Pew Charitable Trust.
    Fear of fees and lack of trust in banks are two main reasons why people do not have bank accounts, the Pew study found. Public scrutiny of overdraft fees on checking accounts, which in 2009 are expected to reach $38.5 billion, has led to congressional legislation that would regulate such fees.
    "Clearly lots of lower-income folks are concerned about or have been burned by the tricks and traps of a traditional bank account," says Paul Leonard of the Center for Responsible Lending. "The big question is whether or not (Bank On programs) are creating sufficient safeguards to prevent the new enrollees from accruing fees."
    Some Bank On programs require banks to waive one set of overdraft fees annually.
    "It is a big issue that we need to pay attention to," says Jerry DeGrieck, who heads Bank On Seattle-King County.
    City officials say it is too soon to know whether Bank On participants will really save money but that a bank account is a necessary step toward financial progress for low-income families.
    "Even with the risks associated with fee structures," says Newark Deputy Mayor Stefan Pryor, a bank "still beats a check-cashing establishment on the corner of your neighborhood every time."


    Jconline - Programs work through challenges of 'unbanked'


    Programs work through challenges of 'unbanked' Updated 11/5/2009 8:42 AM ETBy Martha T. Moore, USA TODAY
    NEWARK — Yvonne Jacobs dashes into Express Check Cashing, a combination liquor store and financial services establishment on Mount Pleasant Avenue. A sign spells out the rates: To cash your paycheck, Express takes 2%.
    Down the block at Wachovia Bank, Jacobs could cash her check for free if she were an account holder — or deposit it and not risk carrying cash. But like an estimated 15,000 households here, Jacobs doesn't have a bank account.
    CUTTING COSTS: Bank On model helps customers avoid high fees"I would like a bank account, because you need a bank account in this date and time," says Jacobs, a nurse. But banks charge fees: at Wachovia, $22 for an overdraft, $25 for a stopped check. "Every little thing, they charge you for," she says. At Express she pays up front. "I know it costs me X amount of money to cash my check," she says.
    Jacobs is one of the "unbanked" people Anthony Santiago wants to reach. The chief operating officer of Newark Now, a community organization, Santiago is working with the city to encourage low-income residents to open bank accounts. Bank On Newark, with 11 banks and credit unions participating, launched Monday.
    It is one of almost 60 Bank On programs created in the past three years, as cities persuade banks to offer special accounts for low-income residents — including those who have had problems banking in the past. The programs focus on financial education to move participants away from alternative financial services such as check cashers and toward bank accounts without running into overdraft trouble.
    "Folks should be able to have a lot of the basic things we take for granted" such as debit cards, Santiago says. Newark's goal is to open 3,000 accounts in the program's first year.
    But Orfilio Chaviano, the owner of Express, says his customers don't want to open bank accounts. "Pie in the sky," he calls the city's program, as he stands on Mount Pleasant Avenue near Jacobs. He says his customers prefer his upfront fees to worries about bouncing checks.
    "I don't see how these people can maintain a bank account" without overdrafting, Chaviano says. "How much is a bank going to charge for a returned check? … They're more expensive" than a check casher, he says.
    Cities are trying to help Bank On participants succeed by working with them and with the banks they will entrust with their money.
    In Indianapolis, banks must go through a checklist of financial education topics before opening a Bank On account, says Perla Williams, Bank On project manager for the city. Customers are also referred to money management classes at community centers.
    In Seattle, the Bank On program offers explanatory brochures — with information on avoiding fees — in 12 languages and helps banks write their own easy-to-understand information about accounts. Some banks in the program will give account holders $50 or $100 in a savings account if they go through money management programs run by community groups.
    The program doesn't require financial education before opening an account. "It simply doesn't work," says Jerry DeGrieck of Bank On Seattle-King County.
    Newark got participating banks to offer one free money order per month, which many low-income residents need because their landlords won't take a check, and which check-cashing stores offer more cheaply than banks do. "That's one little thing we had to fight for," Santiago says. "We asked for three, and they got it down to one. But at least the rent is taken care of."
    Concern that new customers would get into trouble with automatic overdraft fees led New York to skip a Bank On program. Instead, the city will offer, through banks, checkless accounts in which customers get a debit card loaded with the value of the account. Once the money is gone, transactions won't go through.
    "This is a way for us to guide people into a safe banking experience," says Department of Consumer Affairs Commissioner Jonathan Mintz. "It's a way to get them started, rebuild their confidence, rebuild their credit."
     

    2ADMNLOVER

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    "This is a way for us to guide people into a safe banking experience," says Department of Consumer Affairs Commissioner Jonathan Mintz. "It's a way to get them started, rebuild their confidence, rebuild their credit



    What it really is , is one step closer to controlling everyone .
     

    Phil502

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    Its another form of welfare and the banks make money too, we pay extra and low incomers and people without SS numbers :read illegal alien: get to have an account.

    Real funny: low income people are afraid of savings accounts because they have been burned in the past, what is that bs?
     

    rambone

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    'Merica
    Don't underestimate the extent of socialist brainwashing. Even people here jump at the chance to punish evil banks/bankers. Just look at the threads about the recent credit card "reform."
     

    WabashMX5

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    "Clearly lots of lower-income folks are concerned about or have been burned by the tricks and traps of a traditional bank account," says Paul Leonard of the Center for Responsible Lending. "The big question is whether or not (Bank On programs) are creating sufficient safeguards to prevent the new enrollees from accruing fees."
    "Tricks and traps" like addition and subtraction in a check register? "Tricks and traps" like not spending more than you have in the account? What possible "sufficient safeguards" could you possibly use to [strike]save people from themselves[/strike] -- oops, sorry, "prevent the new enrollees from accruing fees"?!?

    If you can't keep track of that on your own (like the nurse in the story), why not open a basic passbook savings account with a token amount of money in it, then cash your checks at that bank as its customer, instead of a ripoff check-cashing place....
     

    2ADMNLOVER

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    "Tricks and traps" like addition and subtraction in a check register? "Tricks and traps" like not spending more than you have in the account? What possible "sufficient safeguards" could you possibly use to [strike]save people from themselves[/strike] -- oops, sorry, "prevent the new enrollees from accruing fees"?!?.


    It's not as black & white as you make it out to be .

    For example , how about when you use your debit card at a gas station , have the money come out of your account right there instead of two weeks later causing an overdraft fee along with every other fee they can tack on .
     

    RCB

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    I remember when I didn't have a bank account where I lived. It was ridiculous. I even took my paychecks to the bank it was issued from and they wanted to charge (National City). Although I had the manager put it in writing and sent it to the attorney general and FDIC for not honoring their own bank note. Then they started that whole finger printing nonsense.

    But there are many places that don't even bank locally. I was actually turned down for a savings account once. A savings account? Really?

    As far as a checking account with a debit card? Yeah it would be nice to have it done in the moment, but really we can get around that without much cost.

    I would say as long as banks are required to offer a savings account, it shouldn't be a big deal.

    However it also smacks of a bad dream if everyone HAS to have a bank account too.

    If it weren't for the convenience, I actually preferred the days when I only had a savings account. Helped me save a lot of money out of sheer inconvenience.

    I do think that any utilities should have a local office in any town they have service that doesn't charge to pay.

    I get tired of these conglomerates coming in, taking over a utility company and shutting down the local offices, then having no way to pay in cash without driving for an hour.
     

    CarmelHP

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    Carmel
    It's not as black & white as you make it out to be .

    For example , how about when you use your debit card at a gas station , have the money come out of your account right there instead of two weeks later causing an overdraft fee along with every other fee they can tack on .

    How's that any different that keeping track of your checks written. Sounds black and white.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    While there are certainly some risks and potential concerns with these plans, the motivation is not as sinister as you might think.

    I'm a board member of our local United Way, and through our community needs assessment- independent of this study, and the overal United Way of America study - we determined that a major hurdle for many in our community is financial independence.

    That lack of independence in turn creates dependence on social welfare programs that taxpayers do in fact subsidize. We are going to work on a similar local effort to help folks get set up with bank accounts so that they can put more of the money they do make into their pocket, so they can do things like pay their bills, feed their families, etc.

    Right now someone who is working, but makes less than the poverty limit wage spends a very large % of their annual income on check cashing fees, money order fees to pay bills, and tax filing fees.

    As an example, lets say you make $7 and hour. You work 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. You make $14,000 per year before taxes. (Granted income taxes on $14,000 are more or less nil). So lets assume you spend $1000 a year to have your paycheck cashed and pay money order fees so you can pay your bills (many utilities and other companies don't accept cash payment anymore, or have collection centers out of town that require payments to be mailed in - shouldn't send cash via mail). That is 7% of your annual income that is immediately gone. Now try to pay the rest of your bills with $13,000 a year. Could you do it?

    Even if you make $100,000 a year, would you really want to spend $1000 on fees? Wouldn't you want to keep that money rather than pay it away? Certainly the banks that participate will make some money from these programs in the form of fees and interest, but is that a bad thing? Isn't that basic capitalism? Sure there is some government backing to reduce fees and such.

    This program is by no means perfect, but I can assure you it is not another government ploy to gain control over the general population.
     
    Last edited:

    WabashMX5

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    How's that any different that keeping track of your checks written. Sounds black and white.

    My point exactly. Have I been known to goof up and get an overdraft fee once in awhile? Yep. When it happens, who do I blame? Me -- not the bank, me.

    jblomenberg16 said:
    While there are certainly some risks and potential concerns with these plans, the motivation is not as sinister as you might think.

    Oh, I'm quite sympathetic to folks shelling out a big percentage of their incomes on these check-cashing fees. But how common is it really to get denied a SAVINGS account? (I saw the one experience with that above, so I know i sometimes happens.) As long as you've got that, you can cash your checks free/cheap, if cashing them is the only way you can keep track.

    Or am I missing something? Are banks denying savings accounts to anyone whose credit score is under 650 now?
     

    kludge

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    The programs — including Indiana's, launched last week, and Newark's, which began Monday — are aimed at the estimated 8.7 million American households that do not have bank accounts. Bank On programs encourage residents to open low- or no-cost checking accounts.
    Participating banks and credit unions must offer "second chance" accounts for customers who have bounced checks in the past, and accept identification besides Social Security numbers, such as taxpayer identification numbers.
    "We wanted to open up access to the financial mainstream," says Leigh Phillips of Bank On San Francisco, which has opened 41,000 accounts since 2006. "We do think we've made a pretty significant impact."

    Translation:

    Banks want a piece of the "paycheck loan/check cashing" business so they can charge overdraft fees on the underpiveledged and illegals.
     

    hornadylnl

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    you might as well pound sand. It would be more productive because you can't fix stupid. We get the same sob stories every tax season. Single mother, 4 kids, paying an exorbitant amount of interest for an instant return on her $4k tax check. WTF does she care. That $4k is nothing more than a welfare check because she didn't pay a dime in taxes.

    While there are certainly some risks and potential concerns with these plans, the motivation is not as sinister as you might think.

    I'm a board member of our local United Way, and through our community needs assessment- independent of this study, and the overal United Way of America study - we determined that a major hurdle for many in our community is financial independence.

    That lack of independence in turn creates dependence on social welfare programs that taxpayers do in fact subsidize. We are going to work on a similar local effort to help folks get set up with bank accounts so that they can put more of the money they do make into their pocket, so they can do things like pay their bills, feed their families, etc.

    Right now someone who is working, but makes less than the poverty limit wage spends a very large % of their annual income on check cashing fees, money order fees to pay bills, and tax filing fees.

    As an example, lets say you make $7 and hour. You work 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. You make $14,000 per year before taxes. (Granted income taxes on $14,000 are more or less nil). So lets assume you spend $1000 a year to have your paycheck cashed and pay money order fees so you can pay your bills (many utilities and other companies don't accept cash payment anymore, or have collection centers out of town that require payments to be mailed in - shouldn't send cash via mail). That is 7% of your annual income that is immediately gone. Now try to pay the rest of your bills with $13,000 a year. Could you do it?

    Even if you make $100,000 a year, would you really want to spend $1000 on fees? Wouldn't you want to keep that money rather than pay it away? Certainly the banks that participate will make some money from these programs in the form of fees and interest, but is that a bad thing? Isn't that basic capitalism? Sure there is some government backing to reduce fees and such.

    This program is by no means perfect, but I can assure you it is not another government ploy to gain control over the general population.
     

    hornadylnl

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    Next, they are going to go after grocery and convience stores in poor areas. How dare they charge more for bread and milk at thaws places than the big box stores. According to the story, this program was presented to the nurse and she still didn't want it. If the person isn't seeking help on their own, they want better their position in lives.
     

    SavageEagle

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    My point exactly. Have I been known to goof up and get an overdraft fee once in awhile? Yep. When it happens, who do I blame? Me -- not the bank, me.



    Oh, I'm quite sympathetic to folks shelling out a big percentage of their incomes on these check-cashing fees. But how common is it really to get denied a SAVINGS account? (I saw the one experience with that above, so I know i sometimes happens.) As long as you've got that, you can cash your checks free/cheap, if cashing them is the only way you can keep track.

    Or am I missing something? Are banks denying savings accounts to anyone whose credit score is under 650 now?

    Actually, I blame my wife when the account goes overdraft because she handles the finances and tells me how much I can spend. :):

    And, even if you have a savings account, it doesn't work like a checking account. You don't get checks or a debit/credit card with it. You might get a debit card, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. So really, a savings account does nothing but give the bank more money to borrow off of and gain you a small amount of interest. AND if you don't have enough in your account to cover your check, you can't cash the check without depositing the difference anyway. So if you have $20 in the bank and a $400 check, you're only getting $20 in cash while you wait for the check to clear into your account.

    Not much good when you need all $400 of that to pay the bills that same day. Been there, done that. Luckily, and as much as I hate Walmarx, they are the cheapest place to cash a check unless you sign it over to someone who can cash it for you.
     

    Phil502

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    I don't know but I never had a problem with all this, put money in the checking account and keep the balance on it, maybe they should throw math lessons in too. Does the bank deny anyone a checking account?
     

    jblomenberg16

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    you might as well pound sand. It would be more productive because you can't fix stupid. We get the same sob stories every tax season. Single mother, 4 kids, paying an exorbitant amount of interest for an instant return on her $4k tax check. WTF does she care. That $4k is nothing more than a welfare check because she didn't pay a dime in taxes.


    I certainly understand the frustration, and agree you can't fix stupid. What we are going to try to help fix is uneducated, which is different than just stupid.

    A lot of the folks that we are looking at helping in our community just really don't know any better. Their parents, and probably their parents parents didn't have bank accounts, so they never even knew why or how to open one. All they know is what they've been taught and experienced.

    I should also emphasize that while many of the folks in these circumstances do fall below the poverty line, there are many above it that don't know any different either, and as a result are in bad situations as well.

    To be clear, our focus is to provide legitimate help and education to these folks to help them break the cycle and get back on their feet again. True, there are many out there that don't want to, and just want the system to take care of them. We won't be able to help them, becaue they don't want to help themselves.

    What has surprised me (and it really shouldn't have), is there are actually some people on welfare, and that use the social services that don't want to be on them, but unfortunately have no choice but to use them to help take care of their family and themselves. These are the ones that will have the desire to make and earn a better life for themselves and their family.

    Getting them set up with a basic bank account and with tax help is just one way to help get them back on their feet again and help them get back to being a contributing member of society.

    Our studies have shown that this helps in so many other ways - health, early childhood education, and even in domestic abuse.

    The way I look at it, and many of my fellow board members look at it, is Shame on Us if we don't do things within our power to help those less fortunate have the opportunities to get back on track. The government can and should only do so much. We don't want big government or sweeping socialism - we want a community that can provide opportunities for its residents to have the opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    I don't know but I never had a problem with all this, put money in the checking account and keep the balance on it, maybe they should throw math lessons in too. Does the bank deny anyone a checking account?


    The first part of you post is the key...many of these folks have no idea how to do that.

    How did you learn? I learned from my parents.

    My wife came from a very good family, which was and is very financialy stable and savvy. However, she had no clue know how to balance a check book because she never had to. After we got married I had to teach her how.

    I agree that it isn't a hard concept...but if you've never been taught, it can seem like a very daunting task.

    The math lesson - yep, they need that too!
     

    hornadylnl

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    The problem is that by the time a person reaches age 20 or so, their world view and their understanding of how reality works is nearly impossible to change. Their is a reason they pick toddlers to be suicide bombers. You ingrain in to them that their life mission is to blow themselves up and take as many out you can in the process, they think that is the way life is. Try recruiting a 20 year old to be a suicide bomber. Essentially what trying to reeducate these people is like trying to deprogram that suicide bomber out of fulfilling his lifes mission.

    Anybody ready to start a caravan to Galt's Gulch?
     

    hornadylnl

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    To add further to my last post. The root cause of this problem isn't the lack of math skills, classroom education, etc. It is the lack of personal responsibilty. What you are asking is that these people unlearn their "reality" and relearn the "real world reality". Opening a checking account for them and teaching them how to balance it alone won't do anything. If they feel no obligation to the people who they write checks to, what incentive do they have to make sure every check they write is a good one? These people feel like everything is owed to them and if their money doesn't cover the bills, oh well, someone else will pick up the tab. This doesn't apply to all but a a good percentage of those on the government teat.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    Yep, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. We're going to try our best to help the folks that do want to change and do want to break the cycle. We won't help them all, but maybe that 40 year old that doesn't take resonsibility has a 16 year son or daughter that will just happen to and get back into a normal setting.
     
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