Trump 2024 — The second term

[jamil]

Sure, I’m happy to see Trump at the receiving end of the same lawfare he spent his whole adult life waging, but I’d hardly say I’m confident in the verdict.

What lawfare? What exactly did he do?

These charges officially amount to crimes, but these convictions do nothing to advance justice or faith in the law.

If anything the convictions undermine our laws. Basically the prosecution got away with elevating a misdemeanor to a felony by alleging some other unknown crime, which the prosecution got around by saying it could essentially be whatever the jury wanted. And a partisan judge agreed to it. This case has so many holes in it it's not going to survive appeals process. But they didn't need it to. They just need Trump to be a convicted felon until the election. And if he spends time in prison so he can’t campaign, all the better.

What do you mean by “doubt the verdict”?

Sounds like you understand what I mean.

I already doubt the impartiality of the court...any court. The modern legal system is just another avenue of control for the ruling elites. The only interesting thing about this case is that Trump got tangled up instead of the common man the system is designed to trap.

By tangled up, do you mean a corrupt partisan system that weaponized the justice system to eliminate a political candidate? Which you're apparently quite happy to see eliminated by any means necessary. At least this one.

You think posting here boosts my ego? Have you read the replies I get?

No. I don't think it boosts your ego, but why come here and start throwing stones at the people you disagree with. Of course you have every right to say what you want, and they're throwing stones right back. But what's the draw in that? Seems like it's more for the "neener neener" entertainment factor than trying to build bridges.

The post immediately following yours resorts to name-calling.

It usually does.

Rub your noses in what? That Trump’s antics finally caught up with him in NY court?

You know that's an extraordinarily partisan take on it. Almost no one thinks of the trial like that. For myself, I wouldn't want even someone who uses lawfare to be overcome by it. The justice system needs to decide justly. If Trump were to win the election, I wouldn't want him to pursue revenge. I'd rather he pursues justice, and if that means Biden ends up convicted for whatever in a fair trail, I'd be satisfied with that. Or, if a fair trial doesn’t proves his innocence...



...I'd be satisfied.

The only surprise is that it took so long to happen…It was so broadly expected that it doesn’t even move the pieces on the political chess board.

It does. If Trump has to go to jail pending his appeal, they're preventing him from campaigning. But, it does move some pieces the other way too, that a lot of people can see how the "justice" system has behaved in such a partisan way to prosecute one's political rivals.

Would you rather I made my decisions about Trumpers based on what I read directly from you here, or based on what I read about you in the mainstream media?

I would rather you judge people by how they behave, what they do, even what you can discern about their character. I'll admit that's hard to do on an internet forum.

With all the real enemies you have out there, it seems bizarre to me to demonize someone actively trying to bridge the gap with you.

So about determining one's character on the internet, who is trying to bridge a gap? I’m seeing more “neener neener” than bridging gaps. I'll give you a fair shake while you're giving a fair shake.

 

[Route 45]

 

[Route 45]

 

[LeftyGunner]

What lawfare? What exactly did he do?

Trump has been involved in over 4000 lawsuits in his life, in more than half those cases he was the plaintiff.

In Manhattan, he is well-known for drawing up a contract, paying much less than the terms of the deal, and forcing the contractor to seek relief from the court…which never comes, because Trump has the means to drag out proceedings until his opponent bankrupts themselves with legal expenses.

He’s been doing this for over 40 years…it is a well-established and well-documented pattern of behavior.

If anything the convictions undermine our laws. Basically the prosecution got away with elevating a misdemeanor to a felony by alleging some other unknown crime, which the prosecution got around by saying it could essentially be whatever the jury wanted. And a partisan judge agreed to it. This case has so many holes in it it's not going to survive appeals process.

Welcome to the push for comprehensive criminal law reform…I assume this is your first day here.

Republicans never have a problem with the way the criminal system works until they find themselves caught up in it, then….surprise, surprise, they complain about how it’s rigged against them.

ITS RIGGED AGAINST EVERYONE.

There is no such thing as an impartial court…the best we can hope for is a court made up earnest participants of conflicting biases…which is hardly confidence-inspiring.

But they didn't need it to. They just need Trump to be a convicted felon until the election. And if he spends time in prison so he can’t campaign, all the better.

Your side keeps talking about how this helps Trump.

Sounds like you understand what I mean.

By tangled up, do you mean a corrupt partisan system that weaponized the justice system to eliminate a political candidate?

The criminal justice system has always been a weapon. It gets wielded against the common people every day. Using it against the elites is the only way to get the elites to change the system for the benefit of the rest of us.

Which you're apparently quite happy to see eliminated by any means necessary. At least this one.

Public officials being held accountable for their actions…just like the rest of us are…is a good thing.

No. I don't think it boosts your ego, but why come here and start throwing stones at the people you disagree with. Of course you have every right to say what you want, and they're throwing stones right back. But what's the draw in that? Seems like it's more for the "neener neener" entertainment factor than trying to build bridges.

Read my posts. I throw stones at Trump, not Trumpers.

Ill admit I don't understand your attraction to the man, but I don’t hold you in lower esteem for that attraction…

…but that’s exactly what keeps me coming back here: I am trying to understand Trump’s appeal from actual Trumpers, not the media.

You know that's an extraordinarily partisan take on it. Almost no one thinks of the trial like that. For myself, I wouldn't want even someone who uses lawfare to be overcome by it.

I grew up in Manhattan, my opinion of Trump was formed in the 1980’s and has remained consistent ever since.

Live by the lawsuit, die by the lawsuit.

The justice system needs to decide justly.

Sure, it needs to…but it does not.

The justice system is horribly broken...but you only seem to care when it affects your chosen political candidate.

If Trump were to win the election, I wouldn't want him to pursue revenge.

Well, that’s his stated plan of action, so…now what?

I'd rather he pursues justice, and if that means Biden ends up convicted for whatever in a fair trail, I'd be satisfied with that. Or, if a fair trial doesn’t proves his innocence...



...I'd be satisfied.

So would I.

Holding politicians accountable is a good thing.

It does. If Trump has to go to jail pending his appeal, they're preventing him from campaigning.

No, it doesn’t…and this year’s candidates don’t need to campaign anyway. This race is incumbent vs incumbent, the electorate already knows what these two candidates are about...For Biden it’s about maintaining the status quo, for Trump it is about becoming king.

But, it does move some pieces the other way too, that a lot of people can see how the "justice" system has behaved in such a partisan way to prosecute one's political rivals.

Good. Anything that pulls the curtain back on the farce that is our criminal legal system is a benefit to our society.

Criminal Law reform is long overdue…it’s a cudgel, not a recourse for justice.

I would rather you judge people by how they behave, what they do, even what you can discern about their character. I'll admit that's hard to do on an internet forum.

If you have been listening you’d know that’s why I keep coming back here after two years of personal attacks and insults against me.

So about determining one's character on the internet, who is trying to bridge a gap?

Me. I am. Right here.

I’m seeing more “neener neener” than bridging gaps. I'll give you a fair shake while you're giving a fair shake.

Decorum is two-way street, and people around here are awful quick to make things personal when they disagree with my political points…INGO as a whole is nowhere near as magnanimous as you yourself claim to be.

 

[Shadow01]

Exactly how many votes will it take to overcome the cheating by the communists?

 

[rbhargan]

Exactly how many votes will it take to overcome the cheating by the communists?

It does not matter. The Democrats will manufacture as many votes as they need, regardless of how many legitimate votes Trump gets. I doubt they will even try to hide it this time. They know the MSM will cover for them and the Judicial system is too corrupt and slow to impede them.

"Too big to rig" is a nice slogan, but given that the Dems created over 10 million fraudulent votes last time, and have had four years to improve their process, I expect the outcome will be a Biden victory, regardless of how people actually vote. Very sad.

 

[jamil]

Trump has been involved in over 4000 lawsuits in his life, in more than half those cases he was the plaintiff.

In Manhattan, he is well-known for drawing up a contract, paying much less than the terms of the deal, and forcing the contractor to seek relief from the court…which never comes, because Trump has the means to drag out proceedings until his opponent bankrupts themselves with legal expenses.

He’s been doing this for over 40 years…it is a well-established and well-documented pattern of behavior.

Okay. So Trump uses the legal system to his own advantage. Obviously that's not an ethical thing to do. But having political opponents use the system to subvert the democratic process of elections is morally equivalent karma? Nah. It's more like "neener neener".

Welcome to the push for comprehensive criminal law reform…I assume this is your first day here.

Republicans never have a problem with the way the criminal system works until they find themselves caught up in it, then….surprise, surprise, they complain about how it’s rigged against them.

ITS RIGGED AGAINST EVERYONE.

Again you're acting like partisans cronies exploiting the legal system to subvert the democratic process is the same thing. So basically, to avoid the former you claim it's the normal latter.

Injustice is injustice, sure, but rather than saying it's wrong, you're enjoying it because it's what your side does.

There is no such thing as an impartial court…the best we can hope for is a court made up earnest participants of conflicting biases…which is hardly confidence-inspiring.

People are biased. Yes. Therefore the people who operate the court system are biased. This is more than bias.

Your side keeps talking about how this helps Trump.

Well. I guess I have a side in that I stand with those who against corruption at this level, while the other side gleefully dismisses it because they like the outcome.

Whether this helps Trump or not remains to be seen. We'll see how the polling turns out.

What's happening is obvious even to you, but since you like the outcome, the means is justified. But you had your mind made up anyway. Is there anything that Joe Biden can do or say that could cause you to vote any other way? I don't see any evidence of that.

ON the other side, it's kinda the same way. This verdict is not going to dissuade the sides. Some who astonishingly haven't picked a side might think they can't vote for a convicted felon, and some might think they have to vote against the side that's subverting the democratic process.

The criminal justice system has always been a weapon. It gets wielded against the common people every day. Using it against the elites is the only way to get the elites to change the system for the benefit of the rest of us.

Again, this is not the same thing. You're just using it as that so that you can pretend that it has somehow produced karma, as if Trump is the cause of the injustice in the CJ system. He's not. He's used the civil justice system to give himself an unfair advantage, and that's not right. He's not the one wielding the CJ system against the common man.

The problem with the CJ system is the system itself. The problem with what we saw in the Trump trial is cronies came together to use their power to thwart a political opponent.

Public officials being held accountable for their actions…just like the rest of us are…is a good thing.

What actions that Trump actually did were he held accountable for? I mean, give a deeper answer than "duh, he was convicted". What did he actually do? And did he get a fair trial for it?

Read my posts. I throw stones at Trump, not Trumpers.

Eh. I mean. Think about why you're posting here about this subject. Do you really think you're bridging gaps?

Ill admit I don't understand your attraction to the man, but I don’t hold you in lower esteem for that attraction…

I'm not attracted to Trump. I see the Biden administration as corrupt. It looks to me like it's not merely incompetence. It's on purpose. I did not want Trump to be the opposition nominee. It is what it is. Least evil.

But, I can clearly see what's going on with all these charges against Trump. Out of all of them, the documents case was the only one I thought was legit. You dig into the details and the rest are ********. But even the documents case may fall apart if it's true that the archives office actually sent those documents to Trump. And then they raided him and found the documents. If that's true. Even that case falls flat. Except if they can ensure they get a favorable venue with a judge that will step on the scales, and a full TDS jury.

…but that’s exactly what keeps me coming back here: I am trying to understand Trump’s appeal from actual Trumpers, not the media.

Just trying to understand? Well. Good as excuse as any. Your posts don't fully support that thesis.

I guess you'd have to talk to an actual Trumper about appeal. I don't have TDS though, so there's that. So I guess you could ask why I don't have TDS for him like pretty much everyone on your side has.

Not a fan. I'm just a not-Biden America-first voter. Kennedy could be an option if he weren't bat **** crazy.

I grew up in Manhattan, my opinion of Trump was formed in the 1980’s and has remained consistent ever since.

Live by the lawsuit, die by the lawsuit.

This wasn't a lawsuit. This was a criminal trial where the consequences are, they take away your rights. And in this case, they're trying to take away people's right to vote for him.

Sure, it needs to…but it does not.

The justice system is horribly broken...but you only seem to care when it affects your chosen political candidate.

Not true. I'm not supportive of unjust verdicts no matter who it is.

Well, that’s his stated plan of action, so…now what?

That remains to be seen. He should have investigated Hillary Clinton during his term. He didn't for the same reason nobody does. Because there's the appearance of partisanship.

Democrats threw that idea out the window. So I WANT Trump to have the whole cabal thoroughly investigated and charged as appropriate, and prosecuted vigorously if it comes to that, and given a fair trial. Now, can that be done without the appearance of partisanship? Probably not.

So would I.

Holding politicians accountable is a good thing.

It is a good thing, but justly.

No, it doesn’t…and this year’s candidates don’t need to campaign anyway. This race is incumbent vs incumbent, the electorate already knows what these two candidates are about...For Biden it’s about maintaining the status quo, for Trump it is about becoming king.

Trump's rallies bring people in. I don't know why other than he says the things they want politicians to say.

For Biden, it's not about maintaining status quo. What the **** has been status quo about his term? His policies are ruining the country. And that seems to be intentional. Men dressing as women and shoving their junk in kids faces was not status quo before Biden, for **** sake!

And for Trump it's about becoming King? I think you're listening to too much MSNBC. Do you also think he's going to put you in camps.

Good. Anything that pulls the curtain back on the farce that is our criminal legal system is a benefit to our society.

Criminal Law reform is long overdue…it’s a cudgel, not a recourse for justice.

Somehow I don't get the impression you're seeing Trump's conviction as a silver lining of exposing the criminal justice system as a farce. You seem quite happy that Democrats are trying to take their opposition out by any means necessary, and I suppose you might even think that's the way the democratic process should work. **** your opposition, as long as you expose your own corruption while doing it?

If you have been listening you’d know that’s why I keep coming back here after two years of personal attacks and insults against me.



Me. I am. Right here.

I think you're doing it wrong. Bridging gaps sound a lot less like neener neener your guy got rekt.

Decorum is two-way street, and people around here are awful quick to make things personal when they disagree with my political points…INGO as a whole is nowhere near as magnanimous as you yourself claim to be.

No. You're right that most people on INGO are not forgiving of progressives. You've done better than many, and I've given you benefit of the doubt. On occasion you've removed the doubt.

 

[jamil]

Exactly how many votes will it take to overcome the cheating by the communists?

All of them.

 

[JCSR]

'I grew up in Manhattan'

I think that sums it up.

 

[Ingomike]

Thank you. Most posters here seem to doubt my sincerety.



I have to answer this question in two parts.

1) Do I have any unease about the basterdization of law?

Yes, very much. I think there are far too many laws on the books already, and that the vagaries contained within those laws leave far too much wiggle room for “creative prosecution”. The criminal code should be clear enough for the layman to understand, else…how can we be expected to abide by it?

2) Do I have any unease about these laws being used against Trump?

**** no.

Trump has been abusing the New York court system to wage lawfare against his personal enemies (not to mention his customers, employees, and investors) for decades…filing ******** complaints, and dragging out proceedings until his targets exhaust their legal defense funding.

This is pure Karma, and it could not happen to a more deserving recipient.



I do not have any personal knowledge of crimes committed by Obama, but I sincerely doubt his financials would hold up to forensic scrutiny.

Insider trading walks in the same circles as bribery…at the very least the optics are suspicious.



Trump was convicted on 34 counts of Falsifying Business Records in the first degree, a Class E felony under New York state law.



Define fair…

…between 80-90% of criminal defendants in NY rely on the public defender system for council. Trump spends tens of millions of his supporter’s donations for private legal defense…if he didn’t get a fair trial who does?

Nice filibuster, didn’t answer a single question.

 

[Ingomike]

The constitutional legality of his instructions is irrelevant, the objective, convict Trump and make it stick until at least the elections are over was a guaranteed outcome. The question now is whether it's going to keep him from winning in November.

In the next few weeks, maybe sooner they will figure out their next step. Sentencing him to a year in prison is easily in the judges power I don't know what he can do to get around that. He can't really campaign on the lam, and the threat of being Epsteined is very real once he is inside.

View attachment 356306

We may start seeing tea in the water soon.

@LeftyGunner has assured us that the trial was constitutional and all constitutional safeguards are in place.

 

[jamil]

@LeftyGunner has assured us that the trial was constitutional and all constitutional safeguards are in place.

Did he? It sounded more to me like, "don't care about any of that stuff, Trump got his comeuppance."

 

[bgcatty]

The orchestrated conviction was a form of “political assassination by lawfare” committed by Biden and the Democrats.
The Democrats are a cancer upon this nation! Period!

 

[indiucky]

Trump has been involved in over 4000 lawsuits in his life, in more than half those cases he was the plaintiff.

In Manhattan, he is well-known for drawing up a contract, paying much less than the terms of the deal, and forcing the contractor to seek relief from the court…which never comes, because Trump has the means to drag out proceedings until his opponent bankrupts themselves with legal expenses.

He’s been doing this for over 40 years…it is a well-established and well-documented pattern of behavior.



Welcome to the push for comprehensive criminal law reform…I assume this is your first day here.

Republicans never have a problem with the way the criminal system works until they find themselves caught up in it, then….surprise, surprise, they complain about how it’s rigged against them.

ITS RIGGED AGAINST EVERYONE.

There is no such thing as an impartial court…the best we can hope for is a court made up earnest participants of conflicting biases…which is hardly confidence-inspiring.



Your side keeps talking about how this helps Trump.



The criminal justice system has always been a weapon. It gets wielded against the common people every day. Using it against the elites is the only way to get the elites to change the system for the benefit of the rest of us.



Public officials being held accountable for their actions…just like the rest of us are…is a good thing.



Read my posts. I throw stones at Trump, not Trumpers.

Ill admit I don't understand your attraction to the man, but I don’t hold you in lower esteem for that attraction…

…but that’s exactly what keeps me coming back here: I am trying to understand Trump’s appeal from actual Trumpers, not the media.




I grew up in Manhattan, my opinion of Trump was formed in the 1980’s and has remained consistent ever since.

Live by the lawsuit, die by the lawsuit.



Sure, it needs to…but it does not.

The justice system is horribly broken...but you only seem to care when it affects your chosen political candidate.



Well, that’s his stated plan of action, so…now what?



So would I.

Holding politicians accountable is a good thing.



No, it doesn’t…and this year’s candidates don’t need to campaign anyway. This race is incumbent vs incumbent, the electorate already knows what these two candidates are about...For Biden it’s about maintaining the status quo, for Trump it is about becoming king.



Good. Anything that pulls the curtain back on the farce that is our criminal legal system is a benefit to our society.

Criminal Law reform is long overdue…it’s a cudgel, not a recourse for justice.



If you have been listening you’d know that’s why I keep coming back here after two years of personal attacks and insults against me.



Me. I am. Right here.



Decorum is two-way street, and people around here are awful quick to make things personal when they disagree with my political points…INGO as a whole is nowhere near as magnanimous as you yourself claim to be.

Quit selling me on him...he's already got my vote....

Trump 2024

 

[Ingomike]

Did he? It sounded more to me like, "don't care about any of that stuff, Trump got his comeuppance."

He did that too…

 

[Ingomike]

It has been indescribable the riots, the damage, the assaults on innocent bystanders, the burning of buildings, the looting of businesses by those outraged by the Trump verdict.

Oops, that is what @LeftyGunner fellow travelers do, the patriots raised $50+ million dollars to defeat them legally. We are different from them…

 

[jamil]

It has been indescribable the riots, the damage, the assaults on innocent bystanders, the burning of buildings, the looting of businesses by those outraged by the Trump verdict.

Oops, that is what @LeftyGunner fellow travelers do, the patriots raised $50+ million dollars to defeat them legally. We are different from them…

That's a good point. I suspect if Trump would have been found innocent the Lefty Rioters would have done their thing.

 

[Route 45]

 

[jwamplerusa]

"Too big to rig" is a nice slogan, but given that the Dems created over 10 million fraudulent votes last time, and have had four years to improve their process, I expect the outcome will be a Biden victory, regardless of how people actually vote. Very sad.

You fix that the same way it was done in 1946. Any attempt to hide the counting, or subvert the law regarding legality of votes is met with "Resistance" and "oversight" by the people.

Battle of Athens (1946) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[LeftyGunner]

@LeftyGunner has assured us that the trial was constitutional and all constitutional safeguards are in place.

It was, and they are…until adjudicated otherwise in court.

The appropriate place to raise questions of constitutionality or judicial malfeasance is during the appeals process…which hasn’t even started yet.

Trump gets two appeals at the state level. If review of his conviction is rejected by both, or heard and upheld by either or both, then he still has an additional avenue of appeal to the federal courts, where he can make arguments based on constitutionality or judicial overreach.