Transfering firearms without serial numbers

[terrehautian]

Won't go into details, but my dad doesn't have his guns in his possession, but wants me to have them. Is there a legal way to make them mine on paper without serial numbers? I know what two hand guns caliber and who makes them, but don't know the model. I know what one of the guns is make and model. The other gun I know what it is make, but again no model. The four long guns I have no idea who makes them. Is this possible?

I should clarify, the guns have serial numbers, my dad doesn't know them.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

 

[terrehautian]

I should clarify, the guns have serial numbers, my dad doesn't know them.

 

[Double T]

No. If he doesn't have them in his posession and does not know the serials, then they are not his.

 

[sloughfoot]

And...you are asking the Federal Governments permission to allow your father to pass onto you his legally owned firearms? Why?

The 4473 does not transfer anything by serial number. It is simply a check that you are legal to own a firearm.

Many people own firearms that were produced long before serial numbers were required by Federal edict.

There is currently no way to pass ownership of a firearm from one person to another because THERE IS NO FIREARMS REGISTRATION. People do not own guns by serial number.

If the serial number has been removed by mechanical or chemical means, that is different matter and someone can be prosecuted for that.

For as long as I have been around, family could gift to family a firearm without a 4473. Has this changed? And how?

 

[ultraspec]

And...you are asking the Federal Governments permission to allow your father to pass onto you his legally owned firearms? Why?

The 4473 does not transfer anything by serial number. It is simply a check that you are legal to own a firearm.

Many people own firearms that were produced long before serial numbers were required by Federal edict.

There is currently no way to pass ownership of a firearm from one person to another because THERE IS NO FIREARMS REGISTRATION. People do not own guns by serial number.

If the serial number has been removed by mechanical or chemical means, that is different matter and someone can be prosecuted for that.

For as long as I have been around, family could gift to family a firearm without a 4473. Has this changed? And how?

Id like to know as well as Im wondering about gifting a firearm across state lines to immediate family via ups or fed ex. Is that still within law?

 

[jd4320t]

They don't have to be transfered.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

I have a couple of my dad's. He handed them to me. I think that's the whole transfer process. You may have trouble with UPS/FedEx/USPS; check with them. I know one or another will ship them, but may require an FFL. May be just as well to drive the distance and pick them up; you'll get to see your relatives anyway. That can be valuable in itself.

 

[ultraspec]

.

 

[RandomName]

An important question is are they in Indiana? If you and your dad are both residents of the same state you can just hand them over and done. If you are residents of different states and both still alive, then legally it should go through an FFL.

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Note that he can lend it to you without any FFL worries. If he then officially leaves it to you in a will, you also don't have to go through an FFL. At least that was the rule about 10 years ago when I inherited some firearms.

 

[JetGirl]

Assuming that your dad/you/guns are all within our state's borders, if you're looking for a paper trail without the 4473, that would be called "bill of sale". However, a bill of sale with no serials probably isn't going to hold up very well, legally speaking.
Why does he not have them, want you to take "ownership" and also not have them? Where are they? Who has physical possession?
What's all up with that hot mess?
(Hey, I can be nosy... somebody posted it all out there on the internet!)

 

[Double T]

Sounded fishy to me as well JG. Almost like someone wanting guns back after a falling out or something, or reneging on a deal.

 

[JetGirl]

Sounded fishy to me as well JG. Almost like someone wanting guns back after a falling out or something, or reneging on a deal.

Well, I didn't think of the reneging aspect. I was kind of at the black print *I ADDED* in the quote below;

my dad doesn't have his guns in his possession (Already gave them to another family member or friend), but wants me to have them (He changed his mind about where he let them go). Is there a legal way to make them mine on paper without serial numbers?(Turns out, I want them.) I know what two hand guns caliber and who makes them, but don't know the model. I know what one of the guns is make and model. The other gun I know what it is make, but again no model. The four long guns I have no idea who makes them. (No idea what they all are because...well...they actually belong to somebody else now.) Is this possible?

I should clarify, the guns have serial numbers, my dad doesn't know them because he gave them away a while back..

 

[KG1]

Well, I didn't think of the reneging aspect. I was kind of at the black print *I ADDED* in the quote below;

Gotta go with JG here. Seems to me the Dad may have given them to someone else previously that may be trying to lay claim to them and there might have been some sort of falling out wherein the Dad wants the Son to take possession of them or the Son feels that they should rightfully have been passed down to him hence the comment about finding out if there is a way to make them legally his.

Sounds like a dispute over the firearms to me.

 

[terrehautian]

Assuming that your dad/you/guns are all within our state's borders, if you're looking for a paper trail without the 4473, that would be called "bill of sale". However, a bill of sale with no serials probably isn't going to hold up very well, legally speaking.
Why does he not have them, want you to take "ownership" and also not have them? Where are they? Who has physical possession?
What's all up with that hot mess?
(Hey, I can be nosy... somebody posted it all out there on the internet!)

Sounded fishy to me as well JG. Almost like someone wanting guns back after a falling out or something, or reneging on a deal.

I won't go into details right now because the matter is still going on. The simple answer is he was kicked out of his wife's house and she hasn't given them back (and he didn't get a divorce lawyer, which is stupid!). That is all I am going to say on the issue right now. I got my answer. I promise when the situations are all over, I will say what is going on but that might not be until the end of the year. My only hope is what his significant other said, she does and there is no issue here.

 

[Iroquois]

Not a bit unusual not to "know" your serial ##s. Other than your service weapon most of
us don't memorize them.
I can think of several scenarios where someone's guns are not in their possession and yet
may have a say in where they go. ( Oncoming alzymers for e.g.)
Gifting a gun in Indiana is easy...not so much in Ill. or other states.
I hope you are successful in acquiring them, if this is a nasty divorce, they might be gone and you may already be out of luck. Not a lawyer, but if he left them behind she
may have considered them 'hers' and sold them or gifted them , and it may be 100%
legal. Good luck, I really understand what family heirlooms mean.

 

[terrehautian]

Lets just say he didn't leave them behind on his own accord. There is only the four long guns I really care about, the rest I want, but can live without.

 

[JettaKnight]

Not a bit unusual not to "know" your serial ##s. Other than your service weapon most of
us don't memorize them.

Umm, that's why they invented pencil and paper.



Or a computer.

I'd argue it's a bit negligent not to have the S/N's recorded for proof in case of theft, loss, fire, etc.

 

[jeremy]

I own several firearms that have no serial numbers. You can list them in a will fairly easily....

 

[JettaKnight]

I own several firearms that have no serial numbers. You can list them in a will fairly easily....

Ditto. But I still have records of them and the SN's recorded for those that have SN's.