Tom Givens - Advanced Pistol AAA - Napanee Indiana

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  • jblomenberg16

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    Tom Givens - Advanced Pistol AAR - Nappanee Indiana

    Just wanted to post up a quick AAR from the Tom Givens class in Nappanee on June 28th. First, thanks to our hosts at the Nappanee Conservation club. They did a great job organizing and putting on the class, including snacks and lunch. It is a very nice range for a class of this type.

    I've taken a handful of training classes up to this point from several reputable INGO trainers, and have seen my knowledge and skills increase substantially as a result. After a little prodding from member VERT, I decided to take this class. This was my first class with an instructor that has a more national reach. I had a solid foundation going in from the previous courses, and this built on that foundation nicely.

    I won't spend a lot of time talking about the details, since as with any training course, going and hearing first hand is going to be the most beneficial for you. Tom's emphasis on tactics and techniques derived from careful study of over 300 shootings involving plain clothed individuals with a concealed handgun comes with proven credibility. My take aways from the instruction were:

    • Time maters...wasting time in a gun fight means you increase your chance of losing.
    • Speed doesn't matter if you don't hit what you are aiming at. We have to make good hits on target quickly (i.e the first shot must count as well as subsequent follow ups) in order to have the advantage and win the gunfight. The range exercises drove this home.
    • Trigger control matters more than anything else at close range engagements. I.e. jerking or slapping the trigger will take the front sight off the target and cause a worse shot than a less than perfect sight picture.

    One of the advantages of taking a course like this is that it also attracts high caliber students. I learned a lot from the guys and gals that shot the course. During some of the drills with partners there was a chance for immediate feedback on how to make slight improvements to shave off seconds on a reload, or quick reminders on properly indexing the trigger finger during movement. The individual shooting drills with the entire class watching gave us a chance to see what others were doing well (and not so well) and apply it. Plus, the added pressure of not just having Tom and his wife watching, but also having 17 other sets of eyes watching upped the intensity a bit, and drove a few of us to make some silly mistakes that we otherwise didn't in the group drills (wrong number of shots in the wrong target, freezing during reloads, pulling shots off targets).


    I would encourage everyone to take one of Tom's classes if they get the chance. His teaching techniques are very effective, and his range drills drive those home very effectively. My shooting improved even more within the first hour of the range exercises simply by doing the little fundamental things right (focus on front sight, even squeeze on the trigger, following through). Those are things that many of us don't do when we are just plinking and shooting at the range. The other advantages of these classes are again the classmates and what can be learned from them.


    The course of fire called for approximately 400 rounds. From discussions among the students after the class, many of us that shot double stack guns shot closer to 500rds. Some of the single stack guys may have been a little closer to 450. This was due in part to the class already having the basics down, so we were able to go right into several drills much more quickly, and were able to do several repetitions of the drills. A few of the drills had us shoot to empty, so of course a double stack gun will shoot more rounds than a single stack, if fully loaded.


    I didn't take any pictures during the class, but have a good picture after I got home last night of a very dirty, but very happy G19. :)


     
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    cedartop

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    Thanks for getting the ball rolling. I saw Jackson taking copious notes so I am sure there will be an AAR from him coming as well. It was great to meet you. Until you posted this I had not put you together with your internet personality. It was great to see such a big INGO presence at the class. It is always encouraging to see that there are some doers to go along with all of the talkers. It is also a great way to keep me honest and a constant reminder that although I am confident in my abilities to handle a situation should it arise, I definitely want to improve my skill level. VERT has a habit of always reminding me of this by example.;)

    As you mention the hosts were great. Steve did a god job of keeping everyone in the loop with the reminder emails. There is no doubt in my mind they are having a good shotgun class today. Unfortunately it is back to the chores for me.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    Thanks for getting the ball rolling. I saw Jackson taking copious notes so I am sure there will be an AAR from him coming as well. It was great to meet you. Until you posted this I had not put you together with your internet personality. It was great to see such a big INGO presence at the class. It is always encouraging to see that there are some doers to go along with all of the talkers. It is also a great way to keep me honest and a constant reminder that although I am confident in my abilities to handle a situation should it arise, I definitely want to improve my skill level. VERT has a habit of always reminding me of this by example.;)

    As you mention the hosts were great. Steve did a god job of keeping everyone in the loop with the reminder emails. There is no doubt in my mind they are having a good shotgun class today. Unfortunately it is back to the chores for me.

    Nice meeting you as well. Always great to put a face with a name! As I mentioned in my AAR...shooting with folks like yourself was part of the great overall experience of the class.
     

    rhino

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    Thanks for the report, jblom! I am sorry I could not make it. I've been in several seminars with Tom Givens, but I've never been in any of his classes with live fire.

    Did you put anything on the lens of your weapon light before you got it dirty to make it easier to clean? If not, make sure you clean it the lens as soon as you can because the longer you wait, the worse it will be (you can guess how I know).
     

    VERT

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    VERT has a habit of always reminding me of this by example.;)

    Don't be so quick to flatter me. Only thing I do better then anyone else is being fast at clearing malfunctions. I get to practice that more then the Glock guys. :):
     

    VERT

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    There were some really impressive shooters in this class. That alone makes a person want to be better.

    I thought the whole day was great. Cleaning out the range bag I fired right at 500 rounds. So even us single stack guys can keep up if we reload fast enough. I knew that it would be a good day. My wife accuses me of having a "bro-mance" for Givens. I really do like his style and methodology. He is really big on accuracy and not sucking. Drills are fast but there is plenty of time as long as you don't miss or mess up. Misses mean bullets flying around hitting things they shouldn't. Misses don't make bad guys stop
     

    GNRPowdeR

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    Thank you for this AAR. I'm looking at Tom's Basic Fighting Pistol hosted by Mad Duck Training near Cincinnati next Spring & am encouraged by what everyone keeps saying about his classes & training techniques.

    VERT has suggested I sign up for a Givens class & your AAR + cedartop having posted on a previous course has only driven me closer to signing up.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    Thanks for the report, jblom! I am sorry I could not make it. I've been in several seminars with Tom Givens, but I've never been in any of his classes with live fire.

    Did you put anything on the lens of your weapon light before you got it dirty to make it easier to clean? If not, make sure you clean it the lens as soon as you can because the longer you wait, the worse it will be (you can guess how I know).

    No I didn't, and it is still pretty darn dirty. I almost wonder if some of it is behind the lens...
     

    VERT

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    Not as impressive as JBs Glock. But darn if this stuff doesn't wipe off. I can't think of a time when I have fired 500 through any of my guns without a cleaning. The lube is running out and has mixed with the dirt. I wiped off the gunk, tightened the grip screws and cleaned the front sight. Otherwise I am going to leave this alone for a couple of days. My birthday is Tuesday and I am thinking about taking a vacation day to go to the range. Not often I get free time to work on guns and a nice dirty gun is just the ticket to stress things a bit.

    photo_zps007dc69d.jpg
     
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    Jackson

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    I can't think of a time when I have fired 500 through any of my guns without a cleaning.

    I cant remember the last time I went less than 500 rounds without a cleaning. But, its a dedicated range/practice/training copy of my carry gun. Not necessarily a practice I recommend for those training with and carrying the same gun.
     

    VERT

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    I cant remember the last time I went less than 500 rounds without a cleaning. But, its a dedicated range/practice/training copy of my carry gun. Not necessarily a practice I recommend for those training with and carrying the same gun.

    Ah and that would be the difference. My carry guns are my range guns. Currently I have a full size and compact of the same platform, but I shot the compact on Saturday. What "range" guns I own have adjustable sights and such and they still get cleaned. I do keep a Glock and M&P around but even the Glock started acting up when I neglected to give it an occasional courtesy lube.
     

    VERT

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    That's why old guys like 1911s. After 20 years Mrs. VERT just tells me to go out to the garage and lube my gun.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    That's why old guys like 1911s. After 20 years Mrs. VERT just tells me to go out to the garage and lube my gun.

    Just have to be careful of it going off accidentally when you do that... ;)



    Back on task just a bit. On the drive home I was thinking a bit about how to apply techniques when I'm carrying in different configurations. Much of the time I'm not going to be wearing a mag carrier like I did during training. Rather, I typically have a spare mag in my left front pocket. Anyone have any good tips / tricks to keeping it as accessible as possible? I.e. is there a good pocket mag carrier out there that at least orients the mag bullets forward?


    Rhino-

    What did you use to clean your light lens...or is it just baked on for good now?
     

    VERT

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    I have seen kydex mag carriers that clip into the front pocket. Personally my pockets are way to full to stick a mag in them. My front left hand pocket is where my light goes. I actually carry my spare mags on my weak side. Double mag carrier for the full size gun, OWB holster, cover shirt. When going IWB I switch to a smaller gun and single mag pouch. Comp-Tac makes a pretty nice single mag pouch that simply clips into the belt.

    I do have a couple weak side single mag pouches for a Glock 19 if you want to borrow them. They are not the clip on kind though. I even have several G19 holsters. Your Raven is good stuff but I understand walking around with Kydex and a TLR-1 and double mag pouches gets to be a bit much.
     

    GNRPowdeR

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    I do have a couple weak side single mag pouches for a Glock 19 if you want to borrow them. They are not the clip on kind though. I even have several G19 holsters. Your Raven is good stuff but I understand walking around with Kydex and a TLR-1 and double mag pouches gets to be a bit much.

    I also have several holster / mag holster options, if interesting in trying something out... Mainly for IWB / OWB instead of pocket carry. I don't have anything that holds a TLR-1, though.
     

    rhino

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    No I didn't, and it is still pretty darn dirty. I almost wonder if some of it is behind the lens...

    I hope not! Hahaha!


    I always enjoy a good courtesy lube.

    I am appalled by your lack of decorum! You'd never see me say such things!!!


    Back on task just a bit. On the drive home I was thinking a bit about how to apply techniques when I'm carrying in different configurations. Much of the time I'm not going to be wearing a mag carrier like I did during training. Rather, I typically have a spare mag in my left front pocket. Anyone have any good tips / tricks to keeping it as accessible as possible? I.e. is there a good pocket mag carrier out there that at least orients the mag bullets forward?

    I've seen pocket mag carriers before. You might want to check the DeSantis web site or do a web search for them. In fact, a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster for one of the smaller pistol might actually make a good mag carrier for a Glock magazine.


    Rhino-

    What did you use to clean your light lens...or is it just baked on for good now?

    It's only been a few days, so you should be okay. I would use hot, soapy water and a nylon scrub brush of some kind. Your lens is glass, so it shouldn't scratch. Let the brush do the work like the way you brush your teeth --- if you press hard enough for the bristles to bend, you are pressing too hard and the ends of the bristles will not be in contact with the surface you're trying to clean.

    Mine had been on there so long that after everything else, I had to use a brass scraper to remove the last remnants.

    In the future, a very thin film of lube, WD-40, turtle wax, or even chapstick will make it a lot easier to clean later.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    Thanks guys. I do have a kydex tuckable single mag carrier. I quit carrying it for two reasons:

    1) I don't have any pants with a waste large enough to accomodate both a IWB holster and IWB mag carrier. That, or perhaps the pants are fine and my wasteline is expanding a bit....

    2) Those that have met me know I've got a slim build. I can conceal my Glock pretty well when tucked in, or with an untucked shirt. Add the mag carrier weak side and my hips are now disproportionally wider than they should be, giving me some very un-natural protrusions. Perhaps nobody else notices, but they do seem pretty obvious to me.


    I may give a few other carriers a try to see what works.


    I also do spend some time carrying the G19 in a desanti's leather IWB without the light when I want to go with a little slimmer profile. I actually have IWB loops for the Raven and have carried it like that before. It isn't too bad either, although it does give my wasteline a strange profile if you look close enough. Again, probably not a real problem, since usually the only people that look for a gun printing are other guys that are carrying, and they aren't the one's to be worried about anyway.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    I hope not! Hahaha!




    I am appalled by your lack of decorum! You'd never see me say such things!!!




    I've seen pocket mag carriers before. You might want to check the DeSantis web site or do a web search for them. In fact, a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster for one of the smaller pistol might actually make a good mag carrier for a Glock magazine.




    It's only been a few days, so you should be okay. I would use hot, soapy water and a nylon scrub brush of some kind. Your lens is glass, so it shouldn't scratch. Let the brush do the work like the way you brush your teeth --- if you press hard enough for the bristles to bend, you are pressing too hard and the ends of the bristles will not be in contact with the surface you're trying to clean.

    Mine had been on there so long that after everything else, I had to use a brass scraper to remove the last remnants.

    In the future, a very thin film of lube, WD-40, turtle wax, or even chapstick will make it a lot easier to clean later.

    Will give that a shot. Last night I turned the light on, and was suprised how bright it still was. It was clearly not a bright as with a clean lens, but still provided plenty of light for good illumination across the room. It was about like some of the earlier incandescent bulbs pre-LED technology.
     

    VERT

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    JB there is someone in the INGO classifieds that is making an inside the pocket mag carrier. I have seen others as well. For a tuckable holster you really should try my CompTac. But honestly I have never really been able to make the whole IWB tuckable thing work for me. I feel your pain. The IWB weak side mag carrier is a no go for me for the same reasons, just too much in the waistband.
     
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