thoughts on a debate i had..

[dansgotguns]

Something has been troubling me....The other day I was in a 3hr debate. Within this debate we talked about many things mostly gun related, but we discussed Americas finances, trillion dollar coins, etc. When it came to guns this person believes we need a "high capacity" magazine ban and didn't see a need for an "assault weapon". When I tried to get this person to tell me how this will prevent mass shootings, they could only say that it would help, and that it couldn't hurt, and we have to try. But when I said that crazy people will not follow any bans and will not be less likely to not commit mass murder because of what they had just proposed. They said "no probably not, but the people just need something to feel safe". That FLOORED me. I explained to them how pointless it would be to feel safe when you truly aren't any safer. They didn't seem to care. I told them what they wanted was just a "feel good measure" that would cease quickly with another mass shooting that they just admitted wouldn't be prevented. I then said that we cannot prevent crazy people from doing what they set out to do, but we can however stop them in the act, they didn't disagree. I explained how I feel the answer is armed police, guards, or teachers in the schools. They felt police and guards would be to costly and armed teahers just doesn't feel right. He agreed when I said its clear by the actions of some teachers at the CT shooting that teachers want to protect their students. Then I said we should allow them a fighting chance instead of just shielding them with their bodies(which is highly noble nonetheless) How is it that people understand that crazy people can only be stopped by force, and yet don't want to anything to fight that battle head on? How is it that people can want a feel good solution, but know it won't actually do any good? How can people want to limit the size of ammunition one can carry in their firearm and yet admit that very thing could mean they die because they didn't have enough ammunition to eliminate the threat? And then say o well that's a small price to pay to make the country feel safe again!! What is wrong with this country?!?!?!?

End of rant

Yes i know make paragraphs, eh

 

[CarmelHP]

Something has been troubling me....The other day I was in a 3hr debate. Within this debate we talked about many things mostly gun related, but we discussed Americas finances, trillion dollar coins, etc. When it came to guns this person believes we need a "high capacity" magazine ban and didn't see a need for an "assault weapon". When I tried to get this person to tell me how this will prevent mass shootings, they could only say that it would help, and that it couldn't hurt, and we have to try. But when I said that crazy people will not follow any bans and will not be less likely to not commit mass murder because of what they had just proposed. They said "no probably not, but the people just need something to feel safe". That FLOORED me. I explained to them how pointless it would be to feel safe when you truly aren't any safer. They didn't seem to care. I told them what they wanted was just a "feel good measure" that would cease quickly with another mass shooting that they just admitted wouldn't be prevented. I then said that we cannot prevent crazy people from doing what they set out to do, but we can however stop them in the act, they didn't disagree. I explained how I feel the answer is armed police, guards, or teachers in the schools. They felt police and guards would be to costly and armed teahers just doesn't feel right. He agreed when I said its clear by the actions of some teachers at the CT shooting that teachers want to protect their students. Then I said we should allow them a fighting chance instead of just shielding them with their bodies(which is highly noble nonetheless) How is it that people understand that crazy people can only be stopped by force, and yet don't want to anything to fight that battle head on? How is it that people can want a feel good solution, but know it won't actually do any good? How can people want to limit the size of ammunition one can carry in their firearm and yet admit that very thing could mean they die because they didn't have enough ammunition to eliminate the threat? And then say o well that's a small price to pay to make the country feel safe again!! What is wrong with this country?!?!?!?

End of rant

Yes i know make paragraphs, eh

Believe me, from my years on INGO making rational arguments to the irrational is useless. You can only hope to sway the rational.

 

[rockhopper46038]

It's difficult to see how you could make much headway with a person who thinks its ok to deprive law abiding citizens of a Constitutional right in order to pass another law that is 100% understood to be ineffective, on the basis of making someone "feel" a certain way. I don't know what to tell you.

 

[AtTheMurph]

Some people are driven by feelings. As in they want to feel safe, whether or not they really are. Doesn't matter what reality is as long as they think they are safe then they are safe in their minds.

As I watch the TV news each night I am floored by how many times the reference is made to "safe". It's the overriding theme of every broadcast. The weather report is made to "keep you safe". The police act to "keep you safe". The government laws are meant to "keep you safe".

It's brainwashing.

 

[dross]

One method I like to use - not because it works, but because it's satisfying to win - is to relate it to something they hold dear. Just turn their arguments around about abortion, or free speech or any other right they value. Use the exact same arguments, just use them in the other context.

 

[jkfletcher]

you cannot have a sane, logical, and fact filled conversation about something with an irrational person. People who want something for irrational reasons don't care what you have to say. They have made up their mind already. But when something happens to them by a criminal with a gun, then they wish they had one. Case in point: I had a friend that did not want anything to do with firearms, but the minute the police left his house from taking the report after he got robbed(while he was at work), he was on the phone with me asking me to go with him to pick one out.

 

[moltke]

How can people want to limit the size of ammunition one can carry in their firearm and yet admit that very thing could mean they die because they didn't have enough ammunition to eliminate the threat? And then say o well that's a small price to pay to make the country feel safe again!! What is wrong with this country?!?!?!?

End of rant

Yes i know make paragraphs, eh

Nothing really new to add, and I know just how you feel as like most of us the circular argument has been part of my daily conversations for a good while not. I would add that I think when discussing specifically the idea of banning magazine by size, I tend to always inquire the following question. If they agree to the idea that someone has the right to defend themselves or their family with firearms, just what number do they believe would be a "proper" or "safe" magazine size that would do the job? Asking them if they had a gun suddenly needed to counter 1 let alone multiple threats, just how many shots do they think THEY would need? Obviously there is no answer, but putting the thought into their head and forcing them to contemplate themselves holding the gun and putting a number on just how many shots they would need sometimes sparks the realization of how dangerous and futile it is limiting defense in a home invasion situation. Most likely not gun owners themselves, I always try to frame scenarios in which I put them or their families directly into as it's easier for anti-gun folks to dismiss ideas otherwise.

 

[churchmouse]

The populace is in a deep state of denial. It is hard for them to face the facts. Our feel good society is failing and all they can do is put another band-aide on an already festered wound. This group of baby boomers and their lib kids have been raised on falsely propped up self esteem and a none existent level playing field. Dr. Spock and all the feel good libs from that era just can not face the facts. We are in trouble and hard measures will be needed to put us back on the rails. They do not want to make those sacrifices. It would be admitting they were wrong all along. JMHO