No one here wants to take that from you. Not everyone shares your/our faith, doctrine, or aspirations. Some want a peaceful end, not a heroic struggle. Regardless of what I may want for myself, it is not for me to decide for them how their end should come.
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No one here wants to take that from you. Not everyone shares your/our faith, doctrine, or aspirations. Some want a peaceful end, not a heroic struggle. Regardless of what I may want for myself, it is not for me to decide for them how their end should come.
Tangent: The interesting thing with the birth process is it's perfectly acceptable to tell the MD that you want to induce on a certain date or schedule a C-section without any medical need. Something like 25% of pregnant women have a C-section when there is no need. That's major medical surgery with a lot more risk of complication than natural child birth. Heck most people dont need to be induced or get pain meds, but they volunteer for it and nobody complains then.
Now back to your regularly scheduled debate....
I am not, the definition of murder is already there.......
You are arguing to keep the laws in place. There's no real difference between arguing to create a law that doesn't exist, and arguing to keep one that does. You are on the side of making/keeping assisted suicide illegal. You are on the side of legislating ethics. Whether or not the legislation exists already is immaterial.
Well, see, we differ fundamentally in our definitions. I don't consider every unnatural ending of a life to be murder. Extend that line of thinking far enough and suddenly every miscarriage needs a homicide investigation...
Here's the difference: murder disregards the dying person's will, suicide is an expression of their will. If someone's life really is their own, they are free to destroy it. Assisted suicide is initiated and carried out by the dying person, therefore the moral issues, if there really are any, are on them only...
Really, I should ignore the Nazi reference, but I had to laugh. That's not happening. I don't buy the argument that eventually we'll be disposing of elderly as burdens, that is another matter entirely and a bit of a slippery slope fallacy.
I have a life. I was born with it. I was born owing no one anything. I and only I am free to choose. That is the philosophy of natural rights, the philosophy our Constitution attempted to legitimize.
One of the tenents of the philosophy of natural rights is that I have the freedom to choose my own religion, or to reject religion.
If it is my life, why am I forbidden by law to end it? If your argument for forbidding me is based in your religion and you can't demonstrate another compelling reason for government to interfere with MY life's disposition, then you are also condoning a requirement to face Mecca and pray five times a day enforced by the government.
If I may end my own life, why may I not ask a friend or a family member to help me? In the absense of these, why may I not hire someone to help me?
This is flawed logic:
A: Your action is wrong.
B: Why?
A: Because it's illegal.
B: Why is it illegal?
A: Because it's wrong.
If you truly can't understand that your religion isn't binding on someone else, and you can't understand that what is illegal or legal has no bearing on what is right and what is wrong, then you are too simple to argue these kind of issues.
So, pick another argument, because I've just destroyed your main ones.
One of the tenents of the philosophy of natural rights is that I have the freedom to choose my own religion, or to reject religion.
If it is my life, why am I forbidden by law to end it? If your argument for forbidding me is based in your religion and you can't demonstrate another compelling reason for government to interfere with MY life's disposition, then you are also condoning a requirement to face Mecca and pray five times a day enforced by the government.
If I may end my own life, why may I not ask a friend or a family member to help me? In the absense of these, why may I not hire someone to help me?
This is flawed logic:
A: Your action is wrong.
B: Why?
A: Because it's illegal.
B: Why is it illegal?
A: Because it's wrong.
If you truly can't understand that your religion isn't binding on someone else, and you can't understand that what is illegal or legal has no bearing on what is right and what is wrong, then you are too simple to argue these kind of issues.
So, pick another argument, because I've just destroyed your main ones.
Yes I am, but I do not feel it is legislating ethics. It is murder by definition in my opinion and it just so happens the same as the law states and has for a very long time.
That is really no comparison.
Yes they are free to destroy it, but not free to ask for help to do it. As listed above there are more than just moral issues here.
Oh really? Again I will ask have you looked into what is happening in Holland in this regard? I would guess that you haven't. Why will no one look into my claim? Read about how that slippery slope has already started there. We do not need to go down this path. When legalized that path will surely come.
This saddens me but comes as no surprise in our modern day. We no longer value human life as something to be cherished and loved. We will do when it is convenient for us and things are going our way but when times are bad......we no longer care.
Did anyone notice the statistic of the terminally ill that want this choice have as history of mental illness? Does that not strike anyone with a warning about the practice some wish to condone?
Absolutely you are, I do not disagree.
You are not forbidden to end it, it only becomes and issue when you ask someone else to do it and therefore cause them to cross the line.
Because it is illegal to do so.
Why is it illegal? Well for one we have a society that does not look kindly on the taking of a human life, unless of course they are unborn and therefore not human 'yet'. Why is it wrong? Well using your logic of not having to believe in my religion then why would it be illegal for you to murder a child if the child wanted it and it was part of your religion? Why is it wrong? because the taking of a human life in this manner meets the definition of murder, plain and simple.
My religion has nothing to do with the law of the land. True, the 10 commandments forbids murder but so did Hammurabi's code and most of mankind has felt this way for thousands of years regardless of religion.
Not in the slightest did you do any such thing.....you did to your beliefs, but when it comes right down to it, the law is the law and it is not a religious law.
Here is some of both sides:
Top 10 Pros and Cons
Should euthanasia or physician-assisted suicide be legal?
Top 10 Pros and Cons - Euthanasia - ProCon.org
Please go read it!
Top 10 Pros and Cons
Should euthanasia or physician-assisted suicide be legal?
Top 10 Pros and Cons - Euthanasia - ProCon.org
Please go read it!
stormryder
Expert
Here is my personal opinion (FWIW),
If we all want the Freedon to choose to own the weapons we want, live how we wish on our terms w/o Big Brother Watching us and ordering us around.
Why is it acceptable to push our personal beliefs on each other saying we cannot do what we want with our bodies and lives???
My mother has been in a nursing home for the past 5+ years due to a combination of "mini" Strokes and Severe MS left undiagnosed throughout her Early life.
She can no longer talk, move, feed herself and is left to live her remaining life in humility confined to a wheelchair wearing an adult diaper.
But, she remains upbeat and always happy to see ANYONE who comes to see her, even though my entire Family has abandoned her.
I would not consider ending her life right now, however if her quality of life nose dived to the point where she was constantly suffering and hating life. I would then consider peacefully ending her suffering.
I have seen people abandoned there where "the lights are on, but noones home" but are force fed to keep on living with no quality of life, in this place.
There are people there that have never developed beyond a babies mentality, if not a childs. These people have been taken care of there their entire lives without any real quality of life.
These people I would have no problem ending their existence, for the simple fact that they will never truly live.
But I would never force the Issue on Anyone, for its their lives, and they should live it however they choose.
Remember the words of Jigsaw (The Saw Movies)- "Live or Die, It's YOUR Choice."
If we all want the Freedon to choose to own the weapons we want, live how we wish on our terms w/o Big Brother Watching us and ordering us around.
Why is it acceptable to push our personal beliefs on each other saying we cannot do what we want with our bodies and lives???
My mother has been in a nursing home for the past 5+ years due to a combination of "mini" Strokes and Severe MS left undiagnosed throughout her Early life.
She can no longer talk, move, feed herself and is left to live her remaining life in humility confined to a wheelchair wearing an adult diaper.
But, she remains upbeat and always happy to see ANYONE who comes to see her, even though my entire Family has abandoned her.
I would not consider ending her life right now, however if her quality of life nose dived to the point where she was constantly suffering and hating life. I would then consider peacefully ending her suffering.
I have seen people abandoned there where "the lights are on, but noones home" but are force fed to keep on living with no quality of life, in this place.
There are people there that have never developed beyond a babies mentality, if not a childs. These people have been taken care of there their entire lives without any real quality of life.
These people I would have no problem ending their existence, for the simple fact that they will never truly live.
But I would never force the Issue on Anyone, for its their lives, and they should live it however they choose.
Remember the words of Jigsaw (The Saw Movies)- "Live or Die, It's YOUR Choice."
"We" never did. There is no period in history representative of this golden age of enlightenment to which you keep alluding. Human life has always been valued cheaply by governments firstly, and societies after. Millions upon millions of lives have been thrown away, disposed of like garbage, since the dawn of recorded history. Read your Bible, where it talks about entire civilizations laid to waste, with women and children slaughtered like chickens at KFC.
Stop pretending things were once grand -- in almost every part of the world, there was a time in very recent history when a person of low birth could be summarily executed for looking cross-eyed at a rich man. This is life, cherished and held sacred? You're smoking the good stuff if you believe that.
But I suppose that since such atrocities were legal at the time, they were all right by you. At least no one was breaking THE LAW, for heaven's sake!
And therein lies one of the issues...now someone else is deciding what s quality of life......
Nobody even commented on the Holland issue after many tries...no one cares...
ME!ME!ME!!!!!!
How in the ....
Ok Fletch, y'all win. Everyone can decide to off themselves and should even have the right to go to Wal-Mart and have the physician on hand do it for them. No conditions, its their body right?
You talk of a utopia or some crap that I NEVER allude to. I tell you that MURDER has been crime in most societies for thousands of years and you come up with that?
Ok, we just need to make 'bad' murder a crime....then things will be ok.
I mean we all ready kill the unborn, lets kill the old and feeble also.
In a civilized society as our is supposed to be? 50 years ago, ol gramps would have been taken care of and visited by his family. Now he can just have them convince him to go ahead and do everyone a fvaor...
It is sick, but since no one even bothered to look at the Holland case, there is no more point...
Its ok Fletch.......dont hold life sacred, you and others are right and the law is wrong. It should be ok to murder or elderly.
I elect those with this outlook to be the ones to 'push' the button...
Remember, pushing the button is different that pulling the plug...
I get accused of talking in circles and crap but literally beg those to go research the cases in Holland to 'see' the result of what they are advocating.......did anyone?
You see, once you hold no value to the human life, you in my opinion have lost your humanity. It can start innocent enough, just as abortion did. We need to save the lives of these girls getting back alley abortions. This will save lives. Well here we are 40 years later, 40 million less people in the world and this now legal procedure is used for birth control.
You think it will not happen with Euthanasia?
You serious?
Sure you do. This
and other posts like it are all bemoaning a state where once everything was peachy-keen because we valued life.
Actually, we still do. This is not a light decision for the person dying, obviously, and it's not easy for the person carrying out their wishes.
One more time. This is a discussion of cases where someone wishes to die and, being unable for whatever reason to suicide, requests assistance. This is different from somebody pressuring euthanasia on another person or carrying it out without regard for their wishes. This is why nobody commented on Holland. It's a different situation and I for one don't buy the argument that one will necessarily lead to the other.
We argue for a person that wishes to die having the freedom to beg assistance, and you equate us with Nazis and tell us if we're allowed, then we'll be killing old people en masse tomorrow. I read about Holland. Now YOU go read about the slippery-slope logical fallacy.
Since your views are rooted in a religion I don't expect to change them. So, though I'm really curious how you reconcile supporting the death penalty with the murder angle, I'm pretty much done here...
I never realized until now that Fletch was advocating murder. Bad Fletch!
Fletch, have you considered euthanizing yourself? That's a fair outcome for someone suggesting we do away with illegal murder.
Formal and informal logic should be taught in school, for then we wouldn't have to endure these arguments that have been understood to be fallacious for thousands of years. The ancient Greeks certainly got a lot of things wrong, but they could have easily explained these terribly bad arguments.
Fletch, have you considered euthanizing yourself? That's a fair outcome for someone suggesting we do away with illegal murder.
Formal and informal logic should be taught in school, for then we wouldn't have to endure these arguments that have been understood to be fallacious for thousands of years. The ancient Greeks certainly got a lot of things wrong, but they could have easily explained these terribly bad arguments.
In my world, the dross world, before I decide whether the use of force is practical, I first consider whether it is morally justified. If I can't find a moral justification for using force against someone else, everything stops right there. All other arguments about practicality and outcomes and supposed good or bad effects are rendered moot.
You see, it might be good for ME in many, many instances to use force against you, but I'm simply not justified to use it. That goes for force at the threat of my 300 pound ex-paratrooper body, or my CZ 9mm, or for the politician I can vote into office to make unjust laws that benefit me personally.
If I have the right to end my own life, then I must also have the right to ask another to help me. The other person can't be committing murder because he's helping me perform an act at my request that I have the right but the physical incapability to perform.
The government has the POWER to make such things illegal, but not the moral justification. So we're back at square one - no moral justification, no more needs to be said. You gotta' have that first, or you're just a tyrant.
You see, it might be good for ME in many, many instances to use force against you, but I'm simply not justified to use it. That goes for force at the threat of my 300 pound ex-paratrooper body, or my CZ 9mm, or for the politician I can vote into office to make unjust laws that benefit me personally.
If I have the right to end my own life, then I must also have the right to ask another to help me. The other person can't be committing murder because he's helping me perform an act at my request that I have the right but the physical incapability to perform.
The government has the POWER to make such things illegal, but not the moral justification. So we're back at square one - no moral justification, no more needs to be said. You gotta' have that first, or you're just a tyrant.
Nothing has ever been peachy clean, nor have I claimed that. What we are talking about here is a change in society right along the Margret Sanger line of thinking... Once the value of life is questioned, we loose part of our humanity, irregardless of religious concerns.
Do we really? As compared to say 50-60 years ago?
If you can not see the connection between the two cases then I guess you can't. Only a few commented on Holland but that is not the case here right. One does not inevitably lead to the other right? See the post about Oregon will ya?
I equate that once a society looses the ability to hold any human life dear, they then make exceptions and then well the Mengle analogy fits as that is what will happen at some point after....its already started.
My views are rooted in religion yes. I have been taught that Mankind is different than a dog and all other animal life. All human life is precious and special and should not be taken lightly. I am not arguing that someone should have to have every last treatment to stay alive. As was pointed out by others, treatments can be stopped, pain can be negated, and nature can take its course without one having to resort to asking someone to commit murder.
As for the Death Penalty, that like I said is one I struggle with, as all life is precious but in the same token, once one has taken a life in cold blood, I feel they loose that right.
Thanks for at least reading it, you might not agree with it but at least you can see the 'other' side. I see your position I think. Its none of our business what a patient/doctor do. Its none of the governments either. Fine for the most part I agree until it crosses a line.
So mercy killing is fine then? Its morally justified then right?
Reasonable take except for you asking one/someone to do it, that is the part I have problems with...
Again lets review the definition of Murder, justified or not:
Well then I wholeheartedly disagree then, yes it has the power to make it illegal, but I would say that it also has the moral justification to make murder illegal.
I guess it would be ok to make mercy killing ok and legal, surely that could not get out of hand right?
Thank you this has been an agrement of mine for YEARS and why I was able to pull the plug on my mother. Yes, I wish someone like JK would have been there so my final memories were not of watching her struggle to breathe, wracked with pain that the morphine did nothing for, and unable to move or speak.
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