The Problem with Third Party Candidates

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  • dburkhead

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    From my Livejournal page.

    A lot of people are dissatisfied with the Republican Party and are thus inclined to vote for a third party, be in Libertarian, Conservative, Constitutionalist, or what have you. I presume (since I don’t really hang out much with folk at that end of the political spectrum) that there is a similar dissatisfaction with the Democratic Party thus votes going to “Green” and “Socialist” parties.

    I can understand the dissatisfaction. Believe me. I share it. My own politics fall somewhere in the Conservative to Libertarian range. And yes, I have been known to vote third party myself from time to time—usually as a “protest vote” when the actual outcome of the election was not really in question. When the outcome is in question I almost always vote Republican for several reasons.

    Reason one: Some people say there is “no difference” between the two parties. Now, I will agree that they are far more alike than they are different, but the differences are there. In the recent Health Care vote not one Republican voted for it. That’s a difference. What percentage of Republicans voted for far-left judge Sotomayer for Supreme Court Justice compared with the percentage of Democrats? Another difference. Some Republicans did vote for her but, on the whole, Republican Senators were less likely to vote for her than Democrats were. Also, take a look at just one issue from the recent Presidential election—gun control. McCain was no friend to gun owners, that much is clear. Nevertheless, the voting record has him voting in favor of gun owners’ rights twice as often as Obama. Another difference. His record on judicial appointments also had him supporting more conservative judges where Obama did not. Another difference.

    Thus, despite their similarities there are very real differences between the two parties and the candidates they field. Thus, if the choice really were between only a Democrat and a Republican then it really does make a difference. Both may be bad, but one is far worse than the other. If you have to choose between a broken leg and a sucking chest wound (with “neither” not being an option) then I, for one, would pick the broken leg every time.

    Reason two: It has been said, “What have Republicans actually done to increase liberty” with the implied answer of “nothing.” There is quite a bit of truth to that. At most they’ve simply been a bit slower about the erosion of liberty than have the Democrats. However, the counter question is: “what have Libertarians/Conservatives/Constitutionalists/Whatever actually done to increase liberty?” The answer there is equally nothing. Now, the counter-counter argument is that Libertarians haven’t been elected in large enough numbers to do accomplish anything. Which brings us to….

    Reason three: Most people vote Democrat or Republican and the ones who vote otherwise tend to be very fragmented—some this candidate/party, some that candidate/party. That’s not going to change any time soon. Any third-party candidate, to be successful, has to draw enough voters from one or the other (or both) parties to win in the general election. Therein lies the problem. If Leo Libertarian cannot get enough Republican votes to beat Ronnie Rino in the Republican primary (if your state uses primary elections to determine the party candidate) and thus run as a Republican, how in the world can you expect him to get those votes in the general election? You’re competing for the same voters in both cases. There’s a reason why very few “third party” candidates are elected in the larger Federal elections. (Smaller, local, elections can be a somewhat different beast.) If Leo Libertarian really could draw in more votes than Ronnie Rino, then go ahead and have him beat Ronnie in the Primary and run with an “R” after his name in the General. If nothing else, that would give him more backing to go against Donald Democrat in that General.

    These are the main reasons that I believe that, in general, supporters of third party candidates such as the Libertarian party, while well meaning, are mistaken and in many cases, doing more harm than good to the cause of liberty. Yes, they may keep Ronnie Rino out of office but not by putting Leo Libertarian in instead. Nope, they just ensure that Donald Democrat gets the office instead. It’s like giving someone with a headache (Republican politicians) and a bleeding ulcer (Democrat politicians) aspirin (conservative-libertarian third party candidates). It may help with the headache but at the cost of making the bleeding ulcer worse.

    The floor is open.
     

    Prometheus

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    Personally I've had it with people apologizing and trying to legitimize traitors.

    We had two traitors in the 2012 election. There is nothing anyone can say to justify voting for one traitor over another. You can't rationalize treason.
     

    dburkhead

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    Personally I've had it with people apologizing and trying to legitimize traitors.

    We had two traitors in the 2012 election. There is nothing anyone can say to justify voting for one traitor over another. You can't rationalize treason.

    And your candidate accomplished exactly what?
     

    Expat

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    Like it or not, David is absolutely correct at this point in time. Will we one day have a competitive third party, maybe. As long as they are polling under 25% though, then voting for them is a waste and helps to put the most abhorrent choice in office. This is akin to the proverbial cutting off your nose to spite your face. And we all know that even 10% is a pipe dream in most cases.
     

    Fletch

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    Here's how I approached the last election:

    If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.
    -- Robert Heinlein

    I can't say I was made any happier by it, but there it is.
     

    bman

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    while I agree with everything said. I think another problem would be, no party affiliation. It takes established contacts and party support to get anything done in wash. while I might support the ideas of an ind. I don't think an outsider would get much accomplished.
     

    techres

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    I have been looking for the one who promised me that if I voted their way, "this one time", they would vote my way the next time. Why? Because this one election is just too important.

    I cannot find them.

    But I am expecting that the offer/threat/cajoling will be made again. Maybe this time I will record the name better. That way the next time around after that maybe...
     

    dross

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    Personally I've had it with people apologizing and trying to legitimize traitors.

    We had two traitors in the 2012 election. There is nothing anyone can say to justify voting for one traitor over another. You can't rationalize treason.

    Are you trying to accomplish something that will actually bring about what you want, or have you given up on the system and you're just trying to register your displeasure?
     

    CarmelHP

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    Carmel
    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

    Art. III, sec. 3, cl. 1

    I'm tired of people declaring every political disagreement to be "treason." The Constitution defines treason to guard against the jackanapes and political dramatists who want turn every argument into a treason trial.
     

    hornadylnl

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    The repubs are counting on those who vote for the lesser of 2 evils. Your vote for them equals approval to keep on doing what they are doing in their eyes.

    The reality is the are both bending you over. One is just giving it to you and the other is giving it to you while whispering sweet nothings in your ear. The end result is the same. It just depends on whether you yearn to believe in those sweet nothings.
     

    Rizzo

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    This is exactly what the Whigs used to say until the republican party was born out of a great struggle.

    Vote for the constitution not for republicans or you'll be a slave by the hand of Rhinos (fake conservatives) rather than dems. NO MORE COMPROMISE!!!

    Most republicans are traitors and owned. I will NOT support them. I chose freedom. I will vote without regard for party but only based on those who will follow the constitution strictly.

    Dem's getting elected is better than Rhinos because the more damage Dem's do the more people will see the truth and turn to freedom. And they'll blame the damage on liberals not conservatives. Nothing has done more for waking people up than Obama winning. Sometimes it takes a Carter to get a Reagan.

    The tighter they grip the more people will slip through their fingers. It's coming to a head and things are going to change. We may have to endure some more liberals but the more they steal freedom the more people will see through the lies.

    We can't afford to blow our chances by electing a McCain type. The republican party can die for all I care. I will only vote for men and women true to the constitution. They must understand, uphold and proclaim a return to following the 10th amendment or I WILL NOT vote for them.
     
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    dburkhead

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    The repubs are counting on those who vote for the lesser of 2 evils. Your vote for them equals approval to keep on doing what they are doing in their eyes.

    The reality is the are both bending you over. One is just giving it to you and the other is giving it to you while whispering sweet nothings in your ear. The end result is the same. It just depends on whether you yearn to believe in those sweet nothings.

    And I ask you what I asked Prometheus: What has your candidate accomplished?
     

    Prometheus

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    This is exactly what the Whigs used to say until Lincoln proved them wrong.

    Vote for the constitution or you'll be a slave. NO MORE COMPROMISE!!!

    Most republicans are traitors and owned. I will NOT support them. I chose freedom. I will vote without regard for party but only based on those who will follow the constitution strictly.

    Dem's getting elected is better than Rhinos because the more damage Dem's do the more people will see the truth and turn to freedom. Nothing has done more for waking people up than Obama winning. Sometimes it takes a Carter to get a Reagan.

    The tighter they grip the more people will slip through their fingers. It's coming to a head and things are going to change.

    Yep.

    As to those whose panties get in wad over the term traitor... all I can say is, the truth hurts.

    When a person violates their oath, they commit treason. Plain and simple.

    Some of you thought I was joking when I said I'm going to start calling people what they are. Thieves, Kleptomaniacs, Traitors...

    It's time to stop dancing around the facts.

    You try and take my money, by force you are a thief. Liberals do so under the color of law are not just thieves but kleptomaniacs. They keep stealing and stealing. You wipe your ass with the Constitution you are a traitor.

    Don't like the miriam-webster definitions? Stop stealing and stop violating your oaths!
     

    dburkhead

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    This is exactly what the Whigs used to say until Lincoln proved them wrong.

    And, of course, the world today is exactly like it was in the 1850's.

    Vote for the constitution or you'll be a slave. NO MORE COMPROMISE!!!

    All or nothing!

    And if the result is nothing?

    If your favored candidate cannot win a primary against a Republican candidate, how in the world can you expect him to win the general election?

    Most republicans are traitors and owned. I will NOT support them. I chose freedom. I will vote without regard for party but only based on those who will follow the constitution strictly.

    Dem's getting elected is better than Rhinos because the more damage Dem's do the more people will see the truth and turn to freedom. Nothing has done more for waking people up than Obama winning. Sometimes it takes a Carter to get a Reagan.

    And sometimes it takes a Clinton to get a Bush II to get an Obama.

    And sometimes it takes a Lois VI to get you a Robespierre. And it takes a Robespierre to get you a Napoleon.

    The term for the above is "wishful thinking."

    The tighter they grip the more people will slip through their fingers.

    More wishful thinking.

    It's coming to a head and things are going to change.

    "It's time for a change!" (Frequent line heard at a Clinton rally at the college I attended.)
    "Hope and Change." (Guess who.)

    The Terror was a change too. The Bolshevik revolution and the purges under Stalin were changes too. The Khmer Rouge's genocides were a change too.

    And I ask again: if your "conservative" candidate cannot beat other Repubican candidates in the primary, how in the world can you expect him to beat the same candidate come November?
     

    dross

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    A majority, by it's nature, requires that a diverse population of people band together. Look at this gun forum. Most people here agree on a large variety of issues, and are much closer in agreement than either of the two major parties are with their entire constituencies. And yet, even with this group there are major differences on what's constitutional. How do you ever hope to get more than 50% of the population to agree with you on a strict interpretation of the Constitution? And if you can't, you're relegating yourself to the margins, ensuring that the greater of two evils will always have power. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    Also, look at some of the rhetoric you're using against people here who are very close in agreement with most of what you agree with - moreso than a huge majority of the people you'll have to win over to ever gain your goals. You guys come close to being insulting to people who agree with an originalist view of the Constitution, like some of those arguing here. Yet you think you'll convince the vast majority of people out there who probably can't tell you the first thing about the Constitution, and would freak out if they knew even half of what you believe? Politics is not a method to acheive ideological purity. Not even the Founders had that. They strongly disagreed before and after the convention.

    If you want to always be on the fringe, left out of the process as a protest, fine. But you're always going to have a government that is far away from what you believe.

    It's not about getting whatever you want, it's about making the best choice from what's available.
     

    boozoo

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    If we want to get better candidates, it's going to have to happen at the primary level and we're going to have to tell national and state party officials to GTFO and let us choose who WE want to run.

    Easier said than done.... but that seems to me to be where the initial failure point is.
     

    hornadylnl

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    And, of course, the world today is exactly like it was in the 1850's.



    All or nothing!

    And if the result is nothing?

    If your favored candidate cannot win a primary against a Republican candidate, how in the world can you expect him to win the general election?



    And sometimes it takes a Clinton to get a Bush II to get an Obama.

    And sometimes it takes a Lois VI to get you a Robespierre. And it takes a Robespierre to get you a Napoleon.

    The term for the above is "wishful thinking."



    More wishful thinking.



    "It's time for a change!" (Frequent line heard at a Clinton rally at the college I attended.)
    "Hope and Change." (Guess who.)

    The Terror was a change too. The Bolshevik revolution and the purges under Stalin were changes too. The Khmer Rouge's genocides were a change too.

    And I ask again: if your "conservative" candidate cannot beat other Repubican candidates in the primary, how in the world can you expect him to beat the same candidate come November?

    I think that most of us are smart enough to realize that by handing a homeless drunk a $20 bill on the street corner, we are enabling his addiction not helping him.

    By continuing to vote for candidates that continue to bend you over without so much as a kiss, you're enabling them and giving tacit approval of their policies.

    The problems that are ailing our country will not be fixed at the ballot box. The ballot box is only prolonging the inevitable. Our country needs to return to a policy of personal responsibility and a society where people have real property rights. IE, you don't produce, you f'ing starve, not steal from the rich to give to the poor. Our country is made up of roughly 1/3 conservative, 1/3 socialists, and 1/3 weenies who don't have a clue what the f they want until election day. The truth is that the overwhelming majority of that last 1/3 will swing socialist.

    This site is made up of an overwhelming majority of conservatives and yet there is still a huge amount of posters here who are envious of corporations, the rich, etc. When it comes time to vote, many conservatives are still voting for the candidate that is going to bring them the bacon.

    Until you can rewire the brains of the majority of our citizens to real conservatism, things aren't going to change. Our country is too far gone to bring it back by incrementalizing it at the ballot box. We need to return to the roots of our country and follow the constitution today. Not tomorrow, November or 2012. No citizen alive today has lived first hand the freedom that existed in this country 200 years ago so they don't have faith that a return to freedom will bring about prosperity, not another government program.

    My solution:

    Go Galt or split this country down the middle. You've got 45 days to get your stuff packed and move to the side of the country you feel best suits your needs. Conservatives on one side, socialists on the other. On day 46, the 100' tall electric fence goes up and a 2 mile wide minefield on either side. After a couple of years, you decide you chose the wrong ideology and the other side is more appealing? You can make it through the minefields and electric fence, welcome to the other side.
     

    dburkhead

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    Yep.

    As to those whose panties get in wad over the term traitor... all I can say is, the truth hurts.

    When a person violates their oath, they commit treason. Plain and simple.

    "Because Prometheus says so" does not make it so.

    Some of you thought I was joking when I said I'm going to start calling people what they are. Thieves, Kleptomaniacs, Traitors...

    "If you call a tail a leg...."

    Calling someone something that does not fit the standard definition of the words does not make it so.

    It's the fallacy of Equivocation.

    It's time to stop dancing around the facts.

    The "fact" is that your candidates have done absolutely nothing to further the cause of Freedom. At least Republicans have slowed things down a little bit compared to the Democrats.

    You try and take my money, by force you are a thief. Liberals do so under the color of law are not just thieves but kleptomaniacs. They keep stealing and stealing. You wipe your ass with the Constitution you are a traitor.

    Don't like the miriam-webster definitions? Stop stealing and stop violating your oaths!

    Sorry, Prometheus, but words have meanings. Changing the meaning of words, using non-standard definitions to promote a political agenda, is practically a trademark of the left.

    Do you consider it legitimate when an anti-gun group calls open carry "brandishing"? Or how about when they call shooting someone in self defense "murder"? I hope you agree with it because that's exactly what you are doing.

    All taxes can be considered (and, in fact, are) money taken by force. Does that make the first congress thieves and George Washington a murderer for using force of arms to enforce it? Because that's exactly where the absolute application of your "definition" leads.

    You might also note that the definition CarmelHP posted comes not from Merriam-Webster or any other dictionary. It's the Constitution you are using for after-bathroom cleaning material when you deny that definition. And that, then, makes your definition nicely recursive.
     
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