The 2017 General Salma Hayek discussion thread...Part 3!!!

[Kutnupe14]

He lied under oath when he didn't have to. He lied to VP Pence.

Maybe he's just a liar. Or maybe there is fire underneath all that smoke.

It isn't "baseless".

He failed to register as a foreign agent and he failed to disclose income from foreign sources. To think Flynn was guilty of ONE thing, and charged with that ONE thing, and still cooperate with the feds is naive, and exhibits a misunderstanding of how such prosecutions work.

 

[Alpo]

As I think I said before, I'll wait for the indictments. Most of this stuff doesn't appear to be a major threat to national security, so it's interesting press, but not BOAKYAG stuff.

 

[jamil]

It's interesting that the charging document does not quote what he said, the direct question asked of him, nor his response. It's a paraphrase. But the document, and previous reporting on this, strongly implies that the Russian Ambassador started to broach the subject of the Obama sanctions and Flynn said they could not, or should not, discuss those, but asked that they, the Russians, not escalate with retaliatory sanctions of their own, which according to the charging document, the Ambassador replied that they would hold off.

So, did they discuss the sanctions? If so, which ones?

IANAL, but "no" doesn't seem like a perjurous answer. A complete answer would be that the ambassador attempted to discuss them and Flynn stopped him.

This is sketchy... there is no part of the charging document that inplicates collusion on the election... Mueller is far afield and fishing.

It's my understanding that Flynn did not tell the truth to the FBI. That's the charge. The charge isn't collusion. It's lying to the FBI. He copped to it. I don't know what the source of controversy should be about that.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

He failed to register as a foreign agent and he failed to disclose income from foreign sources. To think Flynn was guilty of ONE thing, and charged with that ONE thing, and still cooperate with the feds is naive, and exhibits a misunderstanding of how such prosecutions work.

His company registered as a lobbyist for a Dutch company registered in the Netherlands. The company is majority owned by a Turkish business man who has "ties" with, but isn't part of, the Turkish government. The company's lobbying was fully disclosed but not as a Foreign Agent of a foreign government, which is the law you say he broke... that's a claim which is very tenuous, at best. If so, Clinton's speeches for Russian Uranium concerns would follow the same logic, Foreign Agent.

In fact, if you worked for a company that had foreign ownership, and wrote a letter to the editor about your company, you would have to register under the "Flynn broke the FARA law" logic.

 

[BugI02]

Flynn may or may not have violated a law.

What Flynn absolutely did was OPEN HIS MOUTH. And, allegedly, not tell the truth. He should do what everyone on this website has been told to do repeatedly. Shut the F up when questioned.

Flynn was under no compulsion to say anything. He was in Intelligence. He has lawyers. He has no reason to talk. If he had been given written interrogatories, he might have had a chance to think about what was said and not lied.

He violated his own basic rights and it is therefore difficult to find sympathy with him on this point.

However, the FBI might have been holding a lot more cards and let him off with a plea to lying. Who knows? Perhaps it will come out in future circumstances.

Mueller could have indicted Flynn with upteen different technical violations of Foreign Agent disclosure laws, and security briefing lapses (amended after the fact), which would have had little chance of winning in front of a jury (all were disclosed by his company, they just didn't name him personally). Some small risk of rolling snake-eyes for 60 years in prison but for sure bankrupting millions of dollars defending himself for years against Mueller's unlimited budget, and his son... or a slap on the wrist and be done?

Yep, kind of like those written admissions of guilt hostages of authoritarian regimes are forced to read before the cameras. "Blink rapidly if you're under duress, Gen. Flynn!"

Oh, wait! Trump is supposed to be the authoritarian figure in this little Noh play. Alert! Narrative drift!

 

[Alpo]

You seem to be having trouble with NUANCE this morning, Bug. Have another cup of coffee.

 

[BugI02]

He failed to register as a foreign agent and he failed to disclose income from foreign sources. To think Flynn was guilty of ONE thing, and charged with that ONE thing, and still cooperate with the feds is naive, and exhibits a misunderstanding of how such prosecutions work.

Good of you to admit it. From my link in #1167:

Nevertheless, as I explained in connection with George Papadopoulos (who also pled guilty in Mueller’s investigation for lying to the FBI), when a prosecutor has a cooperator who was an accomplice in a major criminal scheme, the cooperator is made to plead guilty to the scheme. This is critical because it proves the existence of the scheme. In his guilty-plea allocution (the part of a plea proceeding in which the defendant admits what he did that makes him guilty), the accomplice explains the scheme and the actions taken by himself and his co-conspirators to carry it out. This goes a long way toward proving the case against all of the subjects of the investigation. That is not happening in Flynn’s situation. Instead, like Papadopoulos, he is being permitted to plead guilty to a mere process crime. A breaking report from ABC News indicates that Flynn is prepared to testify that Trump directed him to make contact with the Russians — initially to lay the groundwork for mutual efforts against ISIS in Syria. That, however, is exactly the sort of thing the incoming national-security adviser is supposed to do in a transition phase between administrations. If it were part of the basis for a “collusion” case arising out of Russia’s election meddling, then Flynn would not be pleading guilty to a process crime — he’d be pleading guilty to an espionage conspiracy.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Senate Passes Tax Bill

The US Senate passed a tax bill very similar to, though not the same as, the House bill This article lists all of the details of the Senate bill and the differences from the House bill. Scanning through it, it all looks like goodness to me, EXCEPT reducing the tax rate on pass-through income... that looks sketchy, IMO, especially since it excludes the "usual suspects" of doctors, lawyers and accountants who own, or are partners, in a practice.

Here's what's in the Senate tax bill - Dec. 2, 2017

ETA: Moved to it's own thread, found here:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...s-taxes-less-taxes-wait-what.html#post7325322

 

[Kutnupe14]

His company registered as a lobbyist for a Dutch company registered in the Netherlands. The company is majority owned by a Turkish business man who has "ties" with, but isn't part of, the Turkish government.TThe company's lobbying was fully disclosed but not as a Foreign Agent of a foreign government, which is the law you say he broke... that's a claim which is very tenuous, at best. If so, Clinton's speeches for Russian Uranium concerns would follow the same logic, Foreign Agent.

In fact, if you worked for a company that had foreign ownership, and wrote a letter to the editor about your company, you would have to register under the "Flynn broke the FARA law" logic.

Perhaps you should read this:

In October 2014, shortly after he was fired from his job as director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Flynn founded a consultancy called Flynn Intel Group Inc. The Daily Caller found documents showing a Dutch company called Inovo BV hired the Flynn Intel Group in August 2015 to lobby Congress on bills funding the departments of State and Defense.
Inovo was founded by a Turkish businessman named Ekim Alptekin, an Erdoğan ally who holds a top position on Turkey’s Foreign Economic Relations Board. Alptekin, the Daily Caller reports, even helped coordinate Erdoğan’s 2016 visit to the US.
Flynn's consulting firm had already filed a lobbying disclosure to Congress stating that it was working for Inovo. But the disclosure did not include anything about the company’s ties to the Turkish government. And, as the AP report notes, “neither Flynn nor his company had filed paperwork with the Justice Department, which requires more extensive transparency about work that benefits foreign governments and political interests.”

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/9/14868680/trump-adviser-michael-flynn-foreign-agent-turkey-lobby

Be sure not to miss the "Neither Flynn nor his company had filed paperwork with the Justice Department" part. That's a crime.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

You seem to be having trouble with NUANCE this morning, Bug. Have another cup of coffee.

I'm going to side with Bug on this... we have seen a lot of proprietorial abuse of power in this country... a person charged with 20 counts only to have all but 2 or 3 thrown out. Not judged not guilty by the jury, but thrown out for lack of evidence. Should never have even been brought, and only done so to intimidate the defendant with huge legal fees for the reams of filings on these bogus charges.

Such prosecutors should be dis-barred, IMO. (well, since horse-whipping and tar and feathering are no longing in vogue)

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'm going to side with Bug on this... we have seen a lot of proprietorial abuse of power in this country... a person charged with 20 counts only to have all but 2 or 3 thrown out. Not judged not guilty by the jury, but thrown out for lack of evidence. Should never have even been brought, and only done so to intimidate the defendant with huge legal fees for the reams of filings on these bogus charges.

Such prosecutors should be dis-barred, IMO. (well, since horse-whipping and tar and feathering are no longing in vogue)

Hey, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. All the people charged have no one to blame but themselves. There's an easy way to avoid this.... FOLLOW-THE-LAW. That's what we say on INGO right?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Perhaps you should read this:

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/9/14868680/trump-adviser-michael-flynn-foreign-agent-turkey-lobby

Be sure not to miss the "Neither Flynn nor his company had filed paperwork with the Justice Department" part. That's a crime.

It says the same thing I did... Flynn and the Flynn Group fully disclosed their lobbying for the Dutch Registered company Innova, LTD. Alpepkin is a Turkish businessman and is no more part of Erdogan's government for being on a business advisory board than Elon Musk was part of Trump's government administration for being on a similar US advisory board (before Elon quit the board).

That it constitutes lobbying on behalf of the Turkish government is very, very tenuous... and Flynn's personal "lobbying", as opposed to his company's, that was in the news was a letter to the editor.

Again, if this is a FARA violation (it isn't), then so was Bill Clinton's (it wasn't) and the hypothetical US employee of a foreign-owned company who writes a letter to the editor in support of his employing company. It's bogus #Resist pulp.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Hey, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. All the people charged have no one to blame but themselves. There's an easy way to avoid this.... FOLLOW-THE-LAW. That's what we say on INGO right?

If a judge throws out charges, it's because the prosecutor has not met the minimum evidence threshold that "you did the crime" to put it before a jury. Occasionally, that happens... but if it's the bulk of the charges, it shows intent to intimidate on unsupportable charges, and the prosecutor is in the star-chamber realm.

It violates the bar's standard of ethics and calls for dis-barment.

Or do you support unethical prosecutors?

 

[printcraft]

Originally Posted by Kutnupe14
Hey, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. All the people charged have no one to blame but themselves. There's an easy way to avoid this.... FOLLOW-THE-LAW. That's what we say on INGO right?

I’m glad you agree on border security and stopping illegal immigration.
Good to have you on the team.

 

[Alpo]

I'm going to side with Bug on this... we have seen a lot of proprietorial abuse of power in this country... a person charged with 20 counts only to have all but 2 or 3 thrown out. Not judged not guilty by the jury, but thrown out for lack of evidence. Should never have even been brought, and only done so to intimidate the defendant with huge legal fees for the reams of filings on these bogus charges.

Such prosecutors should be dis-barred, IMO. (well, since horse-whipping and tar and feathering are no longing in vogue)

Trumped up charges....may take on a whole new meaning when the dust settles here.

But, most of us don't like overreaching prosecutors...not because we've ever been criminals, but because of our sense of fairness. But, let me ask you, if some foreign source is willing to pay you a large percentage of a million dollars or more, is it because of your insight or your connections? I'd say mostly connections in this case, which means lobbying.

When you register in hindsight, it supports that position, doesn't it?

 

[indiucky]

I’m glad you agree on border security and stopping illegal immigration.
Good to have you on the team.

Kut's always been on that team....He just wants to decide WHO comes over across the border that he feels is a good fit for America...

After a painstaking process involving copious amounts of Zima and smooth Latin jazz in the background here is a group of potential immigrants on their way to a new life in the USA......

Kut says, "It's good work...If you can get it..."

Another group passes the Kut Test......

 

[Fargo]

Dupe

 

[Fargo]

Hey, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. All the people charged have no one to blame but themselves. There's an easy way to avoid this.... FOLLOW-THE-LAW. That's what we say on INGO right?

LOL, that's some funny stuff right there. Being charged equals guilt, right?

Oh oh wait though, most of the crimes you say he is guilty of he didn't even get charged with. Does that mean he is innocent on those?

I know you know enough about federal court and federal prosecution to know how ridiculous your quoted post is. Of all the federal offenses you ran across as a cop, exactly how many did the feds prosecute and why?

 

[Kutnupe14]

LOL, that's some funny stuff right there. Being charged equals guilt, right?

Oh oh wait though, most of the crimes you say he is guilty of he didn't even get charged with. Does that mean he is innocent on those?

I know you know enough about federal court and federal prosecution to know how ridiculous your quoted post is. Of all the federal offenses you ran across as a cop, exactly how many did the feds prosecute and why?

On INGO it does. I'm just following the INGO way. Heck even if acquitted, if that doesn't follow the INGO way, capital punishment is to be demanded.

 

[Fargo]

On INGO it does. I'm just following the INGO way. Heck even if acquitted, if that doesn't follow the INGO way, capital punishment is to be demanded.

Ah I see. Disregard.