Tactical Response at it again. Dangerous and Unprofessional ?

[The Bubba Effect]

I think it was unreasonable for Tim to grind his handgun underfoot. That said, I have a question.

For those of you who are totally against intentionally dropping your handgun during training/practice, would it be acceptable if you were practicing on a softer surface like soft grass or if you had a cardboard or some other type of "cushion" to drop your handgun onto?

 

[churchmouse]

I think it was unreasonable for Tim to grind his handgun underfoot. That said, I have a question.

For those of you who are totally against intentionally dropping your handgun during training/practice, would it be acceptable if you were practicing on a softer surface like soft grass or if you had a cardboard or some other type of "cushion" to drop your handgun onto?

The reality of this drill does not make much sense to me.
Yes, guns get dropped.
No, I am not dropping any of my guns to practice......what. Yeah I am a 1911 snob but that is not the issue here.
If LEO tells me to drop my gun it will be on the ground but done so in a much gentler fashion than just dropping a loaded pistol. And no I am not kicking it anywhere. I can slowly back away from it.

 

[MohawkSlim]

Excellent response by Yeager and almost exactly what I figured he'd do.

If you don't like his style, don't take his classes. Don't like his message and media presence, work on your own so you can overshadow him. Until then.... chew on that 56,000 number and then check the video views on his YouTube channel. Use that to reflect on how important your opinion of him is on INGO.

Actually the fact that the quoted students seem to think a negligent discharge was no big deal is worrisome to me. Is this becoming a common belief in the shooting world?

I don't think a ND in a training environment is a big deal. As a matter of fact, it can often be used as a teachable moment.

"Cease Fire!...... Everybody OK? What happened? We good? OK, let's press on."

When your range/training time is so regimented that nothing "scary" ever happens I have to wonder how well you'd perform in a high stress, self defense encounter. "Oh noez, the bad guy just broke the 180 rule and he's actually pointing his gun AT me. He can't do that! That violates the 4 Safety Rules. Stop it, bad guy!"

I know, I know, you can break the 4 rules in an subjectively more safe manner with simunitions but how many of you actually do? How many haters on here actually move around when shooting? You took that one class that one time and that's great. But seeing how many of you dog James Yeager for hiding in a ditch WHILE BEING SHOT AT leads me to believe your mall ninja fantasies of "tricking the mugger" by removing your carry gun whilst being robbed are about as far as you've ever thought about handling your firearm. I get this is a carry-based site and most of you are obsessed with "protecting your right" on a daily basis by tucking your gun into your wasit (holstered, of course) walking to the car, driving to work, securing it in your car - because you're "not allowed" to carry at work - doing the same thing in reverse on the way home and maybe, if you're "really a gun guy" keeping it in the nightstand in case something goes bump in the night.

In short, I'm saying 99% of you haters are one dimensional and have no idea what James Yeager is trying to instill in his "fighting" classes. Perhaps if you could check your preconceived notions about gun safety you might just learn something about gun handling.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think it was unreasonable for Tim to grind his handgun underfoot. That said, I have a question.

For those of you who are totally against intentionally dropping your handgun during training/practice, would it be acceptable if you were practicing on a softer surface like soft grass or if you had a cardboard or some other type of "cushion" to drop your handgun onto?

Not for me. I just don't get the need to do it with real guns. This is the reason we have training aids that look like guns. I'll drop my Blackhawk demonstrator "gun" all day. I'll drop a Sim gun all day. And I have.

You KNOW how to drop something. You don't need training on HOW to drop something. You need training on mindset and when to drop something. That does not require a real gun.

 

[churchmouse]

Excellent response by Yeager and almost exactly what I figured he'd do.

If you don't like his style, don't take his classes. Don't like his message and media presence, work on your own so you can overshadow him. Until then.... chew on that 56,000 number and then check the video views on his YouTube channel. Use that to reflect on how important your opinion of him is on INGO.


I don't think a ND in a training environment is a big deal. As a matter of fact, it can often be used as a teachable moment.

"Cease Fire!...... Everybody OK? What happened? We good? OK, let's press on."

When your range/training time is so regimented that nothing "scary" ever happens I have to wonder how well you'd perform in a high stress, self defense encounter. "Oh noez, the bad guy just broke the 180 rule and he's actually pointing his gun AT me. He can't do that! That violates the 4 Safety Rules. Stop it, bad guy!"

I know, I know, you can break the 4 rules in an subjectively more safe manner with simunitions but how many of you actually do? How many haters on here actually move around when shooting? You took that one class that one time and that's great. But seeing how many of you dog James Yeager for hiding in a ditch WHILE BEING SHOT AT leads me to believe your mall ninja fantasies of "tricking the mugger" by removing your carry gun whilst being robbed are about as far as you've ever thought about handling your firearm. I get this is a carry-based site and most of you are obsessed with "protecting your right" on a daily basis by tucking your gun into your wasit (holstered, of course) walking to the car, driving to work, securing it in your car - because you're "not allowed" to carry at work - doing the same thing in reverse on the way home and maybe, if you're "really a gun guy" keeping it in the nightstand in case something goes bump in the night.

In short, I'm saying 99% of you haters are one dimensional and have no idea what James Yeager is trying to instill in his "fighting" classes. Perhaps if you could check your preconceived notions about gun safety you might just learn something about gun handling.

Well all-righty then....I just said I am not dropping any of my guns and yes, I move when I shoot when I can.

Not bashing your boy my friend. At least I am not.

 

[Dirtebiker]

"Butt Head".........

Reported.




Bully!

 

[RobbyMaQ]

ftr I don't think an nd in a class is as big a deal as others. From an instructor, is a little bit more big of a deal.
However... I know people who'd have ND's during class. And understanding how everyone responded (and understanding how the students in Yeager's class responded), speaks volumes to me. They were there, they experienced it, and I will take their opinion over any keyboard commando's any day of the week. I've certainly made my fair share of mistakes on the line, including 'take a step forward on the line', 'who's rifle is this that didn't have it in safe', and 'who forgot to put their chamber flag in?'

But stomping on a purposely dropped firearm, when instead it could have been done with a blue glun (to get the point across)? Well... that'd be across the line... much like throwing your rifle on the dirt, without a... well repeat after me.
"Mags out, Bolts back, Safety's on, Flag's in, Rifle's grounded, No one touching'. Yeah.... every one of those brokeded. Ok, maybe safety's were on. Guns were certainly grounded. 2 out of 6 ain't bad.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

MohawkSlim, the Kardashians get a lot of views and likes too, and for the same reasons.

Look up Tom Givens and his students win/loss ratio in real gun fights. Note his complete lack of NDs into vehicles, down range photographers, and other Reality TV training methods. I don't agree with Tom on 100% of things, but he's got my respect and proves hands down you don't need shenanigans to produce gunfighters.

The shenanigans are not necessary for anything other than marketing, but the marketing works very well.

 

[Gluemanz28]

Well all-righty then....I just said I am not dropping any of my guns and yes, I move when I shoot when I can.

Not bashing your boy my friend. At least I am not.

The problem with "True One Dimensional" people are they think if you don't agree with them they consider that bashing. Then they go from attacking ones idea to attacking them personally.

 

[Gluemanz28]

Prissy boy...

chez
You got to get more fiber in yo diet bro.

Bran Muffin topped with bacon should get er done.

 

[Tombs]

Not trolling, but a for semi-serious question. Are these your EDC? Or are these range/game guns? I understand having wallhangers/trophy guns. Those really aren't your "fighting" guns though are they? If you have an old heirloom gun, I understand not dropping it. But I also understand you probably shouldn't be traiing with an heirloom. If you are in a defensive shooting, the gun will be seized, and come back beat up from storage and neglect. I have guns that I wouldn't use as "a beater" as well. We're talking EDC here though.

Mind you we're talking about the mean streets of Indiana, not Fallujah.

How regularly are you getting in gun fights?

 

[17 squirrel]

Excellent response by Yeager and almost exactly what I figured he'd do.

If you don't like his style, don't take his classes. Don't like his message and media presence, work on your own so you can overshadow him. Until then.... chew on that 56,000 number and then check the video views on his YouTube channel. Use that to reflect on how important your opinion of him is on INGO.


I don't think a ND in a training environment is a big deal. As a matter of fact, it can often be used as a teachable moment.

"Cease Fire!...... Everybody OK? What happened? We good? OK, let's press on."

When your range/training time is so regimented that nothing "scary" ever happens I have to wonder how well you'd perform in a high stress, self defense encounter. "Oh noez, the bad guy just broke the 180 rule and he's actually pointing his gun AT me. He can't do that! That violates the 4 Safety Rules. Stop it, bad guy!"

I know, I know, you can break the 4 rules in an subjectively more safe manner with simunitions but how many of you actually do? How many haters on here actually move around when shooting? You took that one class that one time and that's great. But seeing how many of you dog James Yeager for hiding in a ditch WHILE BEING SHOT AT leads me to believe your mall ninja fantasies of "tricking the mugger" by removing your carry gun whilst being robbed are about as far as you've ever thought about handling your firearm. I get this is a carry-based site and most of you are obsessed with "protecting your right" on a daily basis by tucking your gun into your wasit (holstered, of course) walking to the car, driving to work, securing it in your car - because you're "not allowed" to carry at work - doing the same thing in reverse on the way home and maybe, if you're "really a gun guy" keeping it in the nightstand in case something goes bump in the night.

In short, I'm saying 99% of you haters are one dimensional and have no idea what James Yeager is trying to instill in his "fighting" classes. Perhaps if you could check your preconceived notions about gun safety you might just learn something about gun handling.

I just might listen to yeager ( because I'm 20 years behind ) if he actually had a decent background with more than a year or so in either LE or working as a driver / contractor. And with being fired by both departments and his overseas employment he's just a moot point to most that have knowledge about guns and killin folks.
The only job he has kept for more than a year or so is being selfemployed..
I do understand you are a yeager fanboy, but for all accounts there are much better schools to attend and with be taught by much sounder instructors than yeager.
I do wonder why as gung ho as he is, why didn't he serve in the Armed Services in the USA ??
JMHO...

 

[Roland of Gilead]

I think it was unreasonable for Tim to grind his handgun underfoot. That said, I have a question.

For those of you who are totally against intentionally dropping your handgun during training/practice, would it be acceptable if you were practicing on a softer surface like soft grass or if you had a cardboard or some other type of "cushion" to drop your handgun onto?

I have done the drop the gun 2 times out of 30 dry fire practice in my basement. I dropped or tossed the obviously empty gun in a clothes basket with clothes in it, as I was running scenarios in my head.

Dropping a gun is low on the totem pole on practicing things to do. I live in an urban environment and police arriving sooner rather than later is a possibility.

Example, someone shot a dog one night, close to my house. I call 911 and tell them where I heard shots, name and call back number. In 120 seconds I see a police car blacked out coming down the street. 30 seconds later there is 4 more cruisers blacked out coming from all different directions.

Out in BFE dealing with LEO can be low on the priority list as they are far away, here in the city dealing with LEO quickly after a shooting should be considered. If the cop says drop it, drop it. If they say put it down put it down.

Throwing a loaded gun on the ground should not be out of question in real world shooting. Throwing a loaded gun on the ground in practice or training is not necessary.

 

[Vigilant]

That must have hurt when you pulled it back out.

Consider INGO's rep face hated, because BBI can't get any rep before it is spread around! Someone + him many, many for making me squirt pee, and spit at the same time!

 

[Vigilant]

Question, for I haven't really gone over this whole thread profusely, has one of INGO's own trainers responded to this thread? After all, there is video posted here showing him ditching his firearm on the ground, in order to go to a backup? I am by no means equating his video of the act with anything unsafe, I will ditch a gun, because I firmly belive they are tools, and when it's purpose has been served, it's out! Will I do it while loaded, and stomp on it, NOPE! But I'm not afraid of tossing it aside to better complete the task at hand!

 

[17 squirrel]

It was funny, I hit him with a +4 its all we got Captain...

 

[Vigilant]

It was funny, I hit him with a +4 its all we got Captain...

Thank you sir, I've got lotsa love to give, but I always hit the ones who aren't allowed rep?

 

[Woobie]

So, can one of you operators show me how to control the orientation of the muzzle when I drop my pistol? I can't figure out how to keep the dang thing from randomly pointing at various stuff I don't want to put holes in.





Now in the Infantry, we lowly non-operationally operational types don't let our folks drop their weapons. Doesn't matter how, but if your rifle hits the ground (and it makes a very distinct sound on a hard surface), you'll be following it to the ground. And if you're one of my guys, you'll be apologizing to it while you're counting the repetitions of your push-ups. You drop it on purpose?

 

[Expatriated]

Yeager's been a friend of mine for over 10 years now so I fully realize that automatically makes my opinion worthless on INGO, but so be it.

I've taken TR classes before. I don't know if you necessarily have to train or demonstrate this, (I routinely drop my Glock in my classes to emphasize the point, but I don't require anyone to drop their weapon) but if for some reason, you lose your grip on your gun and it starts to fall, LET IT FALL! Trying to grab a falling gun is 1,000 times worse than just letting it fall, regardless of where the muzzle ends up pointing. Most modern, functioning guns have mechanisms built in so that the gun will not go off on impact.

A guy I used to work with took his gun off after his shift and went to put it up on the top shelf of his locker. But he fumbled it and it fell. As it was falling, he grabbed it, and during the grabbing process squeezed the trigger and shot himself right through the chest. Other people were standing next to him, immediately got medical help and incredibly he made a full recovery.

I would never ask students to drop their guns. Either they get the concept or they don't. I know many of them would balk at the idea anyway. (Just like my friends who have Jeep Rubicons with the entire ARB catalog attached to it but keep the Jeep spotless and wouldn't dare think about going off road.) I drop mine as part of my lecture on the range and the muzzle faces the berm the entire time and not 1 of the 4 rules are broken. My daily carry is a completely stock 26 year old Glock 19, so I'm not worried about an additional scratch. I don't drop blue guns or whatever else, I'm comfortable dropping my real gun. But some people aren't into it, I get it. I'm not trying to recruit followers, I'm trying to make a point.

I guess those two reasons Yeager gave have merit, but to me by far the more important one is to not attempt to catch a falling gun. You can argue that you don't need to train for that purpose, ok. But, if you've never tried it there is a strong instinctive reaction to try to keep that weapon from hitting the deck. I just don't want it to be deadly for someone.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If you don't like his style, don't take his classes. Don't like his message and media presence, work on your own so you can overshadow him.

Style? So, this is a style now? Which style is this? Moronic numbnuts style?

Look, there is joint and several liability in the gun culture. If some Tactical Practical Bearded Wonder wants to do something stupid, it should not be associated with guns.

One does not need dangerous recklessness of stomping on gun to accomplish any goal. It is simply stupidity masquerading as marketing.

Even Yeager disavowed stomping on guns. It's stupid. Don't do it. Don't defend it.

I don't think a ND in a training environment is a big deal.

Classic.

"Oh noez, the bad guy just broke the 180 rule and he's actually pointing his gun AT me. He can't do that! That violates the 4 Safety Rules. Stop it, bad guy!"

A complete misunderstanding of the Four Rules. I expect nothing less.

How many haters on here actually move around when shooting?

Ah, the INGO Rabbit Run. The danger did not come from moving from shooting, it came from someone stomping on a gun.

In short, I'm saying 99% of you haters are one dimensional and have no idea what James Yeager is trying to instill in his "fighting" classes.

Marketing buzz.

Perhaps if you could check your preconceived notions about gun safety you might just learn something about gun handling.

When your argument is a tautology, you need to pack it in and quit the field. Stop defending moronic practices just so you can be a special snowflake or tactical or some other silly desire.

Look, there are Four Rules; follow them. Guns can discharge without fingers on triggers.

There is no logical reason to stomp on guns. If you do, you hurt the entire gun culture.