Sombody sold MY gun

[geronimojoe85]

What if? What if? What if?

I buy a gun, let's say a highly valuable trap gun from a person FTF. And a few days later another person takes said trap gun while I'm at work and sells it to a gun shop for a song. What can one do? Keeping in mind I bought it FTF and have no paperwork to say that it's mine.

PS: this did NOT really happen. I just want to know what if.

 

[FatGeek]

Even with a FTF, there should be a receipt that both parties take with them that includes the gun model/serial number and both parties license and permit numbers and contact information. I understand should and reality are two different worlds... In your scenario above, not sure how much weight this would have with law enforcement and store management, but it is better than not having anything at all.

 

[Rookie]

Something like this happened at the local gunshop. Son brought in dad's guns claiming they were his. Store owner buys the guns only to find out they were stolen. The guns are still sitting in the back waiting for the son or dad to come up with the money to buy them back.

 

[ATM]

I can't prove that I own my lawn mower but I'm reporting it stolen if someone takes it.

 

[tv1217]

1)Buy large loaf of french bread.
2)Beat thief with large loaf of french bread
3)Laugh as you're arrested on the charge of assault with a leavened weapon

 

[melensdad]

Even with a FTF, there should be a receipt that both parties take with them that includes the gun model/serial number and both parties license and permit numbers and contact information...

Why should this exist?

There is no Indiana law that requires it.

Can you explain to me why you would give your address to a complete stranger and let him know that you own guns?

Now I'm not saying that a gun owner should not keep records, but you can create your own log book of guns/serial numbers/etc.

 

[JBob77]

Why should this exist?

There is no Indiana law that requires it.

Can you explain to me why you would give your address to a complete stranger and let him know that you own guns?

Now I'm not saying that a gun owner should not keep records, but you can create your own log book of guns/serial numbers/etc.

This is a great idea. In the OP's case it could still be difficult to prove, unless you can get who you bought it from to help you out a little.

 

[indyjoe]

If you have the serial numbers and descriptions of the firearms, that would be the starting point. I look at this like someone stealing any of the good tools I have. If I don't have the serial numbers or have not hidden some type of identifying mark on them, I'm screwed.

 

[steve666]

A photograph of each gun you own with description, serial number, when and where purchased written on the back and any paperwork clipped to it makes a terrific record.

 

[quicksdraw]

Why should this exist?

...Now I'm not saying that a gun owner should not keep records, but you can create your own log book of guns/serial numbers/etc.

This is what I do. As soon as I get home with a new gun, I enter Make, Model, Caliber, Serial Number, brief description, and date of acquisition into a spreadsheet.

 

[samrothstein01]

What if? What if? What if?

I buy a gun, let's say a highly valuable trap gun from a person FTF. And a few days later another person takes said trap gun while I'm at work and sells it to a gun shop for a song. What can one do? Keeping in mind I bought it FTF and have no paperwork to say that it's mine.

Sounds like someone needs to take better care of their firearms?? Why would you allow someone access who would do this. Who do you trust with your safe combination or key locations?

Even with a FTF, there should be a receipt that both parties take with them that includes the gun model/serial number and both parties license and permit numbers and contact information.

Then why not just print out a receipt and make it up and have your neighbor sign it?

Receipts are worth no more than the paper they are written on.

..... Simply viewing and acknowledging an LTCH should be the maximum required.

My point was that a bill of sale gives a false sense of security and has no merit. As long as you sold the gun, and had no reason to believe it was sold to someone improper, you are not liable. A BoS is worth no more than the paper it is written on.

.... but how many people even sign their real name on a bill of sale? Additionally, a bill of sale is easy to make up and sign a fake name to if someone cared to do so. It just doesn't provide anything of substance or anything that is not refutable.

It is also presents it's own risk, and usually makes people uncomfortable. Most BoS documents I have seen presented include space that requires the purchaser to give their name, address, DL#, and LTCH#, or some combination of the above. Now you have just given a stranger your information, who knows you are a firearm enthusiast and that you likely have more than one at the address you have just given them. Or...at minimum, they now have at least the beginning of what they need for credit scams. Additionally, and probably the more likely scenario is that they now have everything they need to begin signing YOUR information on the next BoS they are required to sign or to make up BoS on firearms they did not really sell. Lastly, I don't know how other people handle their document storage and retention. Do they keep it safe, shred it at some point? Do they throw it in the trash and now someone may be able to find my address and that I have at least one gun in my home??

Maybe I'm paranoid. They are unnecessary. Just my two cents

Edit: If you really do prefer a paper trail that will in fact hold merit and clear your name, perform the transaction through an FLL. Just an idea for those that are concerned about it.

Why should this exist?

There is no Indiana law that requires it.

Can you explain to me why you would give your address to a complete stranger and let him know that you own guns?

melensdad...I'm out of rep for you at the moment....

 

[Que]

I take a picture of every gun I own and include the serial number on the description. This helps to ensure they can be identified for insurance purposes and for identification, in case of theft.

I used to give and require a bill of sale, but after the first couple, I began to become uneasy about giving my information to a stranger. I no longer require, nor give a bill of sale, accept in my local gun store. If anyone does require it for a private sale and I don't know them well, most likely I will pass on that purchase/sale.

 

[rvb]

Something like this happened at the local gunshop. Son brought in dad's guns claiming they were his. Store owner buys the guns only to find out they were stolen. The guns are still sitting in the back waiting for the son or dad to come up with the money to buy them back.

Um... Isn't it a crime to possess, and sell, stolen goods?

-rvb

 

[geronimojoe85]

Thanks for the info guys. As far as my "safe" goes it's a stack-on locker bolted to the inside of my closet. It works but if someone really wanted to get in there they probably could. I know I need to get a safe. But I have taken pictures and recorded them in a notebook with a backup on a thumb drive. Better than nothing right.

Um... Isn't it a crime to possess, and sell, stolen goods?

So what kind of trouble is the gun shop in? In the case of the father/son the cops probably were not involved. But if they were would the gun shop be out that money?

 

[mconley]

If you have the serial numbers and descriptions of the firearms, that would be the starting point. I look at this like someone stealing any of the good tools I have. If I don't have the serial numbers or have not hidden some type of identifying mark on them, I'm screwed.

This,

But I would make a police report and do your own research on where the guns may have gone. Once you find the gun shop they are at ( if it wasnt sold on the street ), talk to them, let them know whats going on, and show them the police report. Most will try to work something out with you.

 

[mconley]

Um... Isn't it a crime to possess, and sell, stolen goods?

-rvb

Its not stolen if there is no way to tell for sure it is the guns in question, thats where a police report comes in.

 

[Cemetery-man]

Keeping in mind I bought it FTF and have no paperwork to say that it's mine.

Looks like you're SOL and you might want to surround yourself with better friends next time.

 

[223 Gunner]

I have pics, descriptions, and two different logs on my computer with printed "hard copies" that are kept in a safe deposit box, at the bank. Also logs are backed-up on a flash drive that stays with me. Just in case my computer is stolen as well. On top of that I made friends with my nosiest neighbor who calls me on my cell phone when a strange vehicle is in front of my house. She is home all day along with most of my other neighbors. When I buy or build a home I like to do it around older people who are retired or near it, that have no life and like to be nosy. Sometimes nosy isn't bad.

Having said all that it is a pain in the ass when I buy or sell one of them.
Then I have to add/delete and re-print the logs.

 

[jedi]

Here is some software that can help you track your firearms (serial numbers, pics, notes on # of rounds fired, when last used, etc...)

GunSafe - Firearms Collection Software
and
Home Inventory Software | Collecting Software | Software for Collectors | Collector Software
both are free BTW
---UPDATE---
I say skip the second one as you may or may not be able to UPDATE your info after the free eval ends. I'm sure there are other free software outthere as well. PM if you want the SunSafe one I still have it and use it.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Even with a FTF, there should be a receipt that both parties take with them that includes the gun model/serial number and both parties license and permit numbers and contact information. I understand should and reality are two different worlds... In your scenario above, not sure how much weight this would have with law enforcement and store management, but it is better than not having anything at all.

Why should this exist?

There is no Indiana law that requires it.

Can you explain to me why you would give your address to a complete stranger and let him know that you own guns?

Now I'm not saying that a gun owner should not keep records, but you can create your own log book of guns/serial numbers/etc.

I don't need to have a law requiring something to make it a good idea. The usual example I use is tipping at a restaurant: It's a good idea to do so, especially if I plan to ever go there again. (servers DO remember!) There's no law that says I must, however.

That said, however, I don't like the idea of full identifiers on papers in the hands of people I don't know. I'm not really happy with the idea of showing my LTCH or DL, for that matter, because someone with a good memory can remember that long enough to find me later. If s/he is unscrupulous, nothing exists to stop that person from misusing that info. I would have a far smaller problem with a receipt that included the gun's description and SN, the date, price, and place of sale, the same as you'd get at a grocery for buying a pound of bacon.

I wish my C&R did not require me to collect identifying info both on buyers from-and on sellers to me when referring to C&R firearms.

I'd like some way to verify that I wasn't breaking any laws but that neither of us need worry about the safety of our home afterward. Perhaps we might meet at a local notary public and have a disinterested third party view the ID and acknowledge that yes, it identifies that person and yes, they are a resident of this state according to the ID shown. The notary need not be told why his/her services are retained and to my knowledge, they do not record identifying info anywhere.

As to why, I think it's a good idea to have some independently-corroborating info to the fact that you lawfully bought or sold a firearm on a given day and time in the event that the buyer or seller did or does something with it that draws police attention. Anyone can say "Oh, I sold it" or "This? I just bought it this morning!" Having documentation can only help you when you're told to "tell it to the judge".



Blessings,
Bill