Should these EMT's be fired?

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  • hornadylnl

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    NYC victim's mom: EMTs were 'inhuman' not to help Posted 12/22/2009 12:58 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print

    NEW YORK (AP) — Two emergency medical technicians accused of refusing to help a dying pregnant woman are "inhuman" and shouldn't have taken those jobs if they weren't willing to get involved, the woman's mother said Tuesday.
    "These are people who are supposed to take a minute to be concerned," Cynthia Rennix told The Associated Press.
    Rennix's daughter, 25-year-old Eutisha Revee Rennix, died at a hospital Dec. 9, shortly after collapsing in the Au Bon Pain shop in Brooklyn where she worked. Her baby was too premature to survive.
    Witnesses said the EMTs were on their break and told employees to call 911, then left when they were asked to help the woman.
    The Fire Department on Monday suspended Jason Green, a six-year member, and Melissa Jackson, a four-year member, without pay. The department is investigating, as is the state Department of Health, which oversees the emergency medical services system. A criminal probe is also underway.
    Cynthia Rennix said she never could have imagined that an emergency services worker would refuse to help someone.
    "You are very inhuman; you don't need to have a job like you do," she said of the two workers.
    Fire Department spokesman Steve Ritea said that all FDNY members "take an oath to assist others whenever they're in need of emergency medical care. It's their sworn duty."
    Rennix said she has yet to decide whether she is going to take any legal action in connection with her daughter's death. She is taking care of her daughter's 3-year-old son.
    Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
     

    shibumiseeker

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    The GF (who is also an EMT as am I) read that to me last night. I keep feeling like there are details missing. If they were in uniform and refused to help then they deserve to be hanged for it. If they were off duty and out of uniform then I don't think they should be required to assist (Indiana is such a state, dunno about New York), but their morals are questionable.
     

    hornadylnl

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    Don't about all states require doctors, nurses, emt's, etc. to act in a medical emergency while on or off duty? I just assumed they do, maybe I'm wrong. Do health workers have an oath like doctors do?

    ETA: Clearly, we're only getting the mother's side of the story here. I would think there would be other witnesses to verify either side of the story. Unfortunately, the only news that we'll get is this story and the civil trial award.
     

    Bubba

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    I guess I don't really understand the working conditions of an NYC EMT, but where I work, if you aren't on the clock you aren't covered by the company's insurance. If the same holds true for these two, perhaps they were afraid helping this woman (and they had no way to know how serious it was) would put them at serious personal liability. I don't like the morality of it, and I don't know I could just sit there and watch, myself, but I can certainly understand being afraid of lawyers.:nailbite:
     

    redneckmedic

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    Don't about all states require doctors, nurses, emt's, etc. to act in a medical emergency while on or off duty?

    No, only duty to act when being paid or publicly displaying your uniform.

    Fire them, then put them in jail... borderline patient abandonment
     
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    shibumiseeker

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    Some states require that anyone certified as an EMT respond medically if they come upon a medical emergency. Not all do though. In those states that don't an off-duty non uniformed EMT would have the same duty to notify the legal authority as any other civilian would.
     

    hornadylnl

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    Thanks for the clarification. If these EMT's refused to act soley because of personal liability, then every politician, lawyer, etc that brought that mindset to fruition should be publicly hanged. The idea that anyone who tries to help an injured or dying person may face criminal or civil court is so far beyond any inkling of common sense. And people wonder why I've lost all hope in our country.
     

    redneckmedic

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    Some states require that anyone certified as an EMT respond medically if they come upon a medical emergency. Not all do though. In those states that don't an off-duty non uniformed EMT would have the same duty to notify the legal authority as any other civilian would.

    I think this is an assumption. You are never required to preform skills off duty. You are now just a citizen.

    Point in case, its your daughters wedding, you are completely inebriated, you are not fit to give medical care nor have the ability to make and kind of clear judgment. Can you be held responsible if someone throws their back out playing limbo if you don't act?
     

    Dryden

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    Thanks for the clarification. If these EMT's refused to act soley because of personal liability, then every politician, lawyer, etc that brought that mindset to fruition should be publicly hanged. The idea that anyone who tries to help an injured or dying person may face criminal or civil court is so far beyond any inkling of common sense. And people wonder why I've lost all hope in our country.


    Welcome to New York City. If you ever get the chance, Google the name "Kitty Genovese" It was the story of a woman in NY around the early 1960's. She was tortured and raped for hours outside an apartment building while dozens of "onlookers" watched.... NOBODY called the cops.

    After Sept. 11th, I thought things had changed. Maybe not.
     

    Doug

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    I believe Indiana has a "Good Samaritan" law which protects someone who acts in good faith to help a victim. I don't know about New York or if it applies to trained personel. It should, if it doesn't. I can certainly understand not helping if you're afraid of being sued. Unfortunately, all too often, "No good deed goes unpunished."

    Doug
     

    redneckmedic

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    Thanks for the clarification. If these EMT's refused to act soley because of personal liability, then every politician, lawyer, etc that brought that mindset to fruition should be publicly hanged. The idea that anyone who tries to help an injured or dying person may face criminal or civil court is so far beyond any inkling of common sense. And people wonder why I've lost all hope in our country.

    Covered by Good Samaritan Law
     

    mrjarrell

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    The EMT's should be fired and held liable in civil court. New York state laws provide for a "good Samaritan" clause that would absolve them of liability for all but gross negligence.
    Pub. Health Law §3000-a, which provides in part:Any person who voluntarily and without expectation of monetary compensation renders first aid or emergency treatment at the scene of an accident or other emergency outside a hospital, doctor's office or any other place having proper and necessary medical equipment, to a person who is unconscious, ill, or injured, shall not be liable for damages for injuries alleged to have been sustained by such person or for damages for the death of such person alleged to have occurred by reason of an act or omission in the rendering of such emergency treatment unless it is established that such injuries were or such death was caused by gross negligence on the part of such person.
    Liability wasn't an issue here. Cruelty and cowardice were.
     

    shibumiseeker

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    I think this is an assumption. You are never required to preform skills off duty. You are now just a citizen.

    There are some states that DO require an EMT to stop and render aid if they see a medical emergency, even if that EMT is not on duty. They can be cited if they are identified as an EMT (even off duty) and they do not stop at an accident scene where no other responding personnel are present. As I said, I am glad Indiana is not one of those states. Not that I won't stop and render aid, but I don't think the State should require me to do so.
     

    redneckmedic

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    There are some states that DO require an EMT to stop and render aid if they see a medical emergency, even if that EMT is not on duty. They can be cited if they are identified as an EMT (even off duty) and they do not stop at an accident scene where no other responding personnel are present. As I said, I am glad Indiana is not one of those states. Not that I won't stop and render aid, but I don't think the State should require me to do so.

    Can you site this somewhere?
     

    shibumiseeker

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    Can you site this somewhere?

    Sadly I cannot after a few minutes of search. The best I can find is several references (inlcuding a pdf from an EMT manual) that state that there are a handful of states that have that requirement, but they do not list the states. Back when I was participating on the USENET (mid 90s) newgroup alt.emerg-medicine (I think that was the one) there were recurring discussions about it from the EMTs in those states.
     

    Integraholic

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    They had to be in uniform. How else would everyone know they were EMT's? It's not like they were in plain clothes and yelled to everyone they were, and then left. And yes, they should be fired.
     

    indykid

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    So if you are being attacked, and there is a policeman near you, and since he is off duty, it is ok that he watches you get the snot beat out of you?

    My daughter's boy friend is an EMT. I have a very good friend that is an EMT at that big racetrack in Speedway, and both state that they would have spilled their coffee to get over to anyone who collapsed in front of them regardless as to whether they were "on duty" or not. Because they just care for human life, which is why they became EMTs!
     

    Roadie

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    According to CNN they were "fire department dispatchers trained in emergency medical care", not EMTs. Other articles say they were EMTs. Several articles state that they were "on a break". If they were on the clock, but on break, then I think they are in huge trouble.

    Regardless of the legalities, they are cold and heartless if their actions were as described. I only have First Aid training through the Red Cross and I would like to think I would try to help, and I know for SURE I wouldn't have walked out with my bagel in hand ignoring the situation.
     

    mrjarrell

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    So if you are being attacked, and there is a policeman near you, and since he is off duty, it is ok that he watches you get the snot beat out of you?

    My daughter's boy friend is an EMT. I have a very good friend that is an EMT at that big racetrack in Speedway, and both state that they would have spilled their coffee to get over to anyone who collapsed in front of them regardless as to whether they were "on duty" or not. Because they just care for human life, which is why they became EMTs!
    On duty or off the police have no legal responsibility to render aid and assistance to an individual citizen. The courts have ruled consistently on this. If an individual officer chooses to do so then good on them! The same laws could well apply to EMT's, come to think about it, if they're "public employees". Private company EMT's may not have the same protections.
     
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