should citizenship be a right?

[HavokCycle]

i remember years ago, watching a movie where civillians had to -earn- the right of being a citizen, and enjoy the concepts of our constitution - by military service, or some other 'contribution' to our society.

these days, all you have to do is be born in the US, in order to become a citizen.

its not a commentary about immigration at all.

its a question of what actions would make 'contributing' members of our society?

take it as an exercise in theory and opinion.

 

[IndyDave1776]

If we take the guidance of Vattel, whose work was the reference book used at the Constitutional Convention, it is conferred on those born of citizen-parents, as opposed to anyone from anywhere dropping a kid on US soil. That seems like a pretty good standard along with reasonable requirement for a foreign national becoming a citizen. I do not believe in a two-tiered system which, as with the 'reduced' citizenship for felons, invites the government to disenfranchise people who properly are and deserve all the rights and privileges of being citizens.

 

[HavokCycle]

If we take the guidance of Vattel, whose work was the reference book used at the Constitutional Convention, it is conferred on those born of citizen-parents, as opposed to anyone from anywhere dropping a kid on US soil. That seems like a pretty good standard along with reasonable requirement for a foreign national becoming a citizen. I do not believe in a two-tiered system which, as with the 'reduced' citizenship for felons, invites the government to disenfranchise people who properly are and deserve all the rights and privileges of being citizens.

i'm unfamiliar with the works. how exactly in that writing does one become a 'citizen'?


lets face facts, there is a LOT of people in our system who don't deserve our tax money. i'm all for a social safety net, as its our responsibility to take care of our 'citizens'
but as we all know, there are contributing members of society, and system suckers.

with the current fiscal problems, what reduction could be made by ridding ourselves of these leeches that eat our dollars? not to mention the admin costs of doling them out. not that i've thought out the entirety of it, but a two-tiered system, as you put it, could be an option. maybe I could think out a decent plan to this... in the name of theory.

 

[92ThoStro]

Hey, I know what movie that was!
Starship Troopers!

I do not believe one needs to serve in the military to become a citizen.
I do not believe in making illegal residents, citizens.
I do not believe in making a very large portion of the country into second class citizens, because they were born here, rather than earned their citizenship through deeds.
Now if you ask what I do believe should happen...
-I have not gotten that far yet, still thinking, but I do believe the above actions will lead us down a very slippery slope.

 

[92ThoStro]

Hey, I know what movie that was!
Starship Troopers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_urWSSZgwU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTz9nIUkGc

 

[poptab]

Are you talking about Starship Troopers? Written by Robert A. Heinlein. The same guy who wrote:

“A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ‘state’ and ‘society’ and ‘government’ have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame . . . as blame, guilt, responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world . . . aware that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge of self-failure.”
Mannie: “Hear, hear!” I said. “‘Less than perfect.’ What I’ve been aiming for all my life.”

“You’ve achieved it,” said Wyoh. “Professor, your words sound good but there is something slippery about them. Too much power in the hands of individuals—surely you would not want . . well, H-missiles for example—to be controlled by one irresponsible person?”
Prof: “My point is that one person is responsible. Always. If H-bombs exist—and they do—some man controls them. In terms of morals there is no such thing as a ‘state.’ Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts.”

 

[IRISH1]

i'm unfamiliar with the works. how exactly in that writing does one become a 'citizen'?


lets face facts, there is a LOT of people in our system who don't deserve our tax money. i'm all for a social safety net, as its our responsibility to take care of our 'citizens'
but as we all know, there are contributing members of society, and system suckers.

with the current fiscal problems, what reduction could be made by ridding ourselves of these leeches that eat our dollars? not to mention the admin costs of doling them out. not that i've thought out the entirety of it, but a two-tiered system, as you put it, could be an option. maybe I could think out a decent plan to this... in the name of theory.

make people earn government assisstance through community service....one of many programs neeed

 

[bingley]

these days, all you have to do is be born in the US, in order to become a citizen.

its not a commentary about immigration at all.

Here's a perverse thought. How about making everyone live up to the standards of illegal aliens?

1. You have to risk your life and sneak across a fenced, guarded border, walk across a desert, led by a "coyote" who might betray you at any moment. If you die, oh well.

2. You have to work a below-minimum-paying, back-breaking job for years, no benefits, to show how much you want to be in America. Actual illegal aliens often rack up a big debt to the coyotes, which will take years to pay off. Your earnings during this time will go to the government.

3. You cannot get a driver's license, vote, or use social services, except by cheating. If you're caught, you get tossed out.

4. If you get married, have kids, etc., your family has to go through the same process. They can be taken away from you at any time if they're caught.

5. You can't go to the police if you get mugged, raped, etc. If you do, you will get tossed out. Then it's a do over.

6. Wait for decades for political wrangling on the Capitol Hill to come up with a half-assed, dysfunctional plan to naturalize you.

If every American goes through what illegal aliens have to go through, we'll be sure that Americans really love this country.

 

[Bunnykid68]

i'm unfamiliar with the works. how exactly in that writing does one become a 'citizen'?


lets face facts, there is a LOT of people in our system who don't deserve our tax money. i'm all for a social safety net, as its our responsibility to take care of our 'citizens'
but as we all know, there are contributing members of society, and system suckers.

with the current fiscal problems, what reduction could be made by ridding ourselves of these leeches that eat our dollars? not to mention the admin costs of doling them out. not that i've thought out the entirety of it, but a two-tiered system, as you put it, could be an option. maybe I could think out a decent plan to this... in the name of theory.

I would say, technically, no one deserves tax money.

 

[IndyDave1776]

i'm unfamiliar with the works. how exactly in that writing does one become a 'citizen'?


lets face facts, there is a LOT of people in our system who don't deserve our tax money. i'm all for a social safety net, as its our responsibility to take care of our 'citizens'
but as we all know, there are contributing members of society, and system suckers.

with the current fiscal problems, what reduction could be made by ridding ourselves of these leeches that eat our dollars? not to mention the admin costs of doling them out. not that i've thought out the entirety of it, but a two-tiered system, as you put it, could be an option. maybe I could think out a decent plan to this... in the name of theory.

Here is the link to the entirety of the work:

Emmerich de Vattel: The Law of Nations or the Principles of Natural Law (1758)

Or you can cut to the chase:

de Vattel: Of Our Native Country, and Several Things That Relate to It

 

[IndyDave1776]

Here's a perverse thought. How about making everyone live up to the standards of illegal aliens?

1. You have to risk your life and sneak across a fenced, guarded border, walk across a desert, led by a "coyote" who might betray you at any moment. If you die, oh well.

2. You have to work a below-minimum-paying, back-breaking job for years, no benefits, to show how much you want to be in America. Actual illegal aliens often rack up a big debt to the coyotes, which will take years to pay off. Your earnings during this time will go to the government.

3. You cannot get a driver's license, vote, or use social services, except by cheating. If you're caught, you get tossed out.

4. If you get married, have kids, etc., your family has to go through the same process. They can be taken away from you at any time if they're caught.

5. You can't go to the police if you get mugged, raped, etc. If you do, you will get tossed out. Then it's a do over.

6. Wait for decades for political wrangling on the Capitol Hill to come up with a half-assed, dysfunctional plan to naturalize you.

If every American goes through what illegal aliens have to go through, we'll be sure that Americans really love this country.

We have a process for legal immigration for a reason. The reason this is happening is that it is faster to violate the law at one's own convenience making it longer and more difficult for legal immigration based on the sheer numbers with illegal entry. No sympathy whatsoever here, especially when considering the additional crime committed by these illegal immigrants.

 

[Liberty1911]

Here's a perverse thought. How about making everyone live up to the standards of illegal aliens?

1. You have to risk your life and sneak across a fenced, guarded border, walk across a desert, led by a "coyote" who might betray you at any moment. If you die, oh well.

2. You have to work a below-minimum-paying, back-breaking job for years, no benefits, to show how much you want to be in America. Actual illegal aliens often rack up a big debt to the coyotes, which will take years to pay off. Your earnings during this time will go to the government.

3. You cannot get a driver's license, vote, or use social services, except by cheating. If you're caught, you get tossed out.

4. If you get married, have kids, etc., your family has to go through the same process. They can be taken away from you at any time if they're caught.

5. You can't go to the police if you get mugged, raped, etc. If you do, you will get tossed out. Then it's a do over.

6. Wait for decades for political wrangling on the Capitol Hill to come up with a half-assed, dysfunctional plan to naturalize you.

If every American goes through what illegal aliens have to go through, we'll be sure that Americans really love this country.

If only the "tossed out" part were true.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Here's a perverse thought. How about making everyone live up to the standards of illegal aliens?

1. You have to risk your life and sneak across a fenced, guarded border, walk across a desert, led by a "coyote" who might betray you at any moment. If you die, oh well.

2. You have to work a below-minimum-paying, back-breaking job for years, no benefits, to show how much you want to be in America. Actual illegal aliens often rack up a big debt to the coyotes, which will take years to pay off. Your earnings during this time will go to the government.

3. You cannot get a driver's license, vote, or use social services, except by cheating. If you're caught, you get tossed out.

4. If you get married, have kids, etc., your family has to go through the same process. They can be taken away from you at any time if they're caught.

5. You can't go to the police if you get mugged, raped, etc. If you do, you will get tossed out. Then it's a do over.

6. Wait for decades for political wrangling on the Capitol Hill to come up with a half-assed, dysfunctional plan to naturalize you.

If every American goes through what illegal aliens have to go through, we'll be sure that Americans really love this country.

Yeah...they don't HAVE to do any of that. They could choose to not illegally enter this country.

Anyway, I don't think it would ever fly, but the book Starship Troopers explains it as follows (the movie does a terrible job, the book is muuuuch better in every regard other than gratuitous nudity)

Citizens cannot give themselves any power or privilege over non-citizens with the exception of voting and holding public office. Only veterans can be citizens. Not soldiers still serving, not those who've never served, only veterans. The military is not allowed to not except you. If you are mentally or physically deficient, you may be put to use testing vaccines or the like, but they will take you. Every enlistment is indefinite. You leave the military when the military is done with you.

Then the question is why only veterans? They aren't smarter, they aren't more morale, etc. The answer boils down to they were willing to sacrifice themselves for something greater. They were willing to risk their lives, to give up a portion of their lives at the least, to do a dangerous and crappy, yet necessary, job. They were willing to put country ahead of self. As a result, they should be expected to be able to do the same thing as an elected official.

Sounds good in fiction, of course, but in real life I'm sure we can all come up with military veteran elected officials who were quite willing to put themselves in front of the good of the country.

 

[eric001]

As a theory, having only veterans being citizens with a right to vote and hold office would work perfectly--in a perfect world. Of course, even aside from the fact that we don't, haven't, and never will live in such a world... the same can be said for communism. In a perfect world, where it would of course work perfectly, each of those would give you the predictably perfect result. In the real world, there are as many ways to abuse each system as there are people.

On the other hand, I figure that if folks wanted to come into the country so badly that they were willing to get some kind of special military visa, which required them to immediately serve a full term (call it 4 years active with maybe a few more on reserve duty??) in the military or get booted right back out of the country... I could see THOSE veterans as having earned the right to vote and be legalized citizens. A person ought to be considered a citizen of a country they put their blood, sweat and tears into serving--potentially risking their life as well.

 

[MTC]

No. Citizenship doesn't mean a whole lot -- or means nothing at all, when anyone, anyplace at anytime by any means can lay claim to it.

 

[jrogers]

Are you talking about Starship Troopers? Written by Robert A. Heinlein. The same guy who wrote:

He also wrote a good deal of pro-incest and -pedophilia material. A much more charitable synopsis than I'd be willing to write is available here.

Anyway, I don't think it would ever fly, but the book Starship Troopers explains it as follows (the movie does a terrible job, the book is muuuuch better in every regard other than gratuitous nudity)

The movie and the book are two completely different creatures, with the former essentially satirizing the latter. Have a look at the movie's Wikipedia entry for more details. I'd argue that only the movie has artistic significance, but I'm a huge Verhoeven fan and can't stand that hack Heinlein.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Well... As long as you like other people telling you how you'll live and how much money to pay the government without so much as a vote, then I guess it's a good idea.

Ideas like this smack of the notion that people exist to provide the government with positions of authority.

 

[Llamaguy]

Starship Troopers (and the 3rd movie) are written in a funny, cheesy action movie style but there is a underlying message of what state-worship leads to. Reminds me of Idiocracy except there's nothing to stop stupid people.

 

[volksjager]

My question what does the average natural born American do to deserve their citizenship. I know most immigrants who apply for their citizenship work their butt off to get it. It is no easy task.

 

[poptab]

He also wrote a good deal of pro-incest and -pedophilia material. A much more charitable synopsis than I'd be willing to write is available here.

He was also anti-church and anti-god. I think you missed the point anyway but dont let that stop you. It never does.