I've been carrying in APL for a year now, openly. I carry open everywhere I go unless it is prudent to conceal. Up until now, I have only been contacted once by a LEO at APL and he was at the entrance when I came. He only asked to see my LTCH, nothing more. I had one employee say she was glad the law was changed and that I carry there. This was one of the people that works in the childrens' room on the 2nd floor.
I take my son there once a week to let him run around (2 years old) and get rid of some extra energy. I was at the entrance of the childrens' room and my son was running back and forth between the pillars. I couldn't see the stairs very well from where I was at, so I was surprised when the SD came from my left and said, "Keep your hands where I can see them." I kept my hands at shoulder height and he reaches to take my gun (IWB LC9) as I say, "It is much safer where it is at." He doesn't say anything and starts to check it over and I inform him that he needs to be careful because it is loaded and has a round in the chamber. He just keeps looking at it (I think he was going to unload it but decided against that) and then asks me to follow him. We go into the Indiana room and he ask for the holster. I give him the holster and he put the gun in it and puts that on the shelf in front of him. He asks for my LTCH and I give it to him. He looks it over and then says, "You know you can't have that in here, you need to go put it in the car." I say, "It isn't illegal unless something has changed. I'm not aware of any changes. I prefer not to put it in the car because it can be stolen, but I don't intend to put it in the car since it isn't illegal for me to carry here." We go back and forth a bit about if it is legal. He even says, (in his stern daddy voice) "Even if it isn't illegal, I'm telling you to put it in the car." I shake my head and say, "I understand you don't want me in here, but if I'm not breaking any laws, I'm not going to leave." He asks me to follow him down stairs.
We get to the security desk where he begins to 'share' his opinion about open carry. He asked why I open carry and I reply, "Probably for some of the same reasons you do." I begin to list them, "It is easier to get to if I need it, it is a great deterrent, I meet new people, and it starts some interesting conversations." From him I get, "I think you are doing to get attention." Up to this point, I've been patient. I'm really agitated, but in the interest of LTCH holders and LEO relations, I keep my voice steady and remain calm. I tell him that if I wanted attention, it would be easier to get it by carrying a Desert Eagle 50 cal in a drop-leg holster instead of carrying a compact 9mm in a waist-band holster. To which he more or less disagree's and maintains his position that I'm just looking for attention. I tell him that I could really get attention if I openly carried a shotgun in there since long gun carry is legal. Again, he doesn't budge. I'm not happy that he thinks he knows more about me then what he can read on that pink card, but I resist the urge to tell him so.
I tell him that I think it used to be illegal to carry in a library (before my time as a LTCH holder) but it isn't now. He says there is a library policy against it. I tell him IC would trump that policy so it wouldn't matter if it existed. I did say that if he could find that policy, I would leave and contact my lawyer to find out if I am in the wrong. I should note, I said that in the least threatening manner I could muster, it wasn't a scare tactic, just a statement. He continues looking and can't find anything so he calls over another guy and asks if he knows the policy. This new guy doesn't know and goes to ask the (I think) Library Administrator about it. New guy comes back and says that she told him carry was legal but had to be concealed. I asked if this is just what she felt was true or if she showed him the policy or code. He said she just said it.
So, SD gives me my LTCH and gun back and says I can go. I ask him, politely I might add, if he would please destroy that card (he wrote all my information down from the LTCH) when he was done. He said he would. I let him know that I would be on the 2nd floor for a bit and if he found out anything, to please let me know. I go upstairs to play with my son. A bit later we are leaving the childrens' room when he meets me at the top of the stairs and hands me the card with my info on it. He thanks me for my co-operation.
In all, it wasn't a bad encounter. He pushed the limit of his actual authority but never exceeded it. I'm glad he didn't, because I wasn't going to budge. He was a real bully until he looked through the code and I suspect he made a call or two while I was upstairs and found out I was within my rights. He was a lot calmer but visibly dissatisfied when he returned that info card to me. I asked him if he confronted me because he spotted me or if someone said something. He said a couple of employees said something to him. He was surprised when I told him that was odd since I had carried in there for year without issue. I'm actually proud of myself since I am a smart-ass by nature and that nature tends to show when I know I'm right and someone is really pushing the limit.
Now I just need to become more versed and get clarification about the legal authority for a LEO to demand picture ID with a LTCH. My retainer lawyer doesn't seem to well versed on this issue and thinks it is fine for them demand it. By demand I mean I get arrested if I don't provide it and I have it with me and they aren't detaining me. He told me (along with several LEO's) that I had to provide ID if asked and I had it in my possession. I know they can't demand ID randomly, but I don't know if that applies to LTCH encounters. I don't know for sure, so I just give it to them. Maybe I should just stop carrying it with me. I really hate it when they ask for ID because they don't know if that LTCH is a fake or stolen.
I take my son there once a week to let him run around (2 years old) and get rid of some extra energy. I was at the entrance of the childrens' room and my son was running back and forth between the pillars. I couldn't see the stairs very well from where I was at, so I was surprised when the SD came from my left and said, "Keep your hands where I can see them." I kept my hands at shoulder height and he reaches to take my gun (IWB LC9) as I say, "It is much safer where it is at." He doesn't say anything and starts to check it over and I inform him that he needs to be careful because it is loaded and has a round in the chamber. He just keeps looking at it (I think he was going to unload it but decided against that) and then asks me to follow him. We go into the Indiana room and he ask for the holster. I give him the holster and he put the gun in it and puts that on the shelf in front of him. He asks for my LTCH and I give it to him. He looks it over and then says, "You know you can't have that in here, you need to go put it in the car." I say, "It isn't illegal unless something has changed. I'm not aware of any changes. I prefer not to put it in the car because it can be stolen, but I don't intend to put it in the car since it isn't illegal for me to carry here." We go back and forth a bit about if it is legal. He even says, (in his stern daddy voice) "Even if it isn't illegal, I'm telling you to put it in the car." I shake my head and say, "I understand you don't want me in here, but if I'm not breaking any laws, I'm not going to leave." He asks me to follow him down stairs.
We get to the security desk where he begins to 'share' his opinion about open carry. He asked why I open carry and I reply, "Probably for some of the same reasons you do." I begin to list them, "It is easier to get to if I need it, it is a great deterrent, I meet new people, and it starts some interesting conversations." From him I get, "I think you are doing to get attention." Up to this point, I've been patient. I'm really agitated, but in the interest of LTCH holders and LEO relations, I keep my voice steady and remain calm. I tell him that if I wanted attention, it would be easier to get it by carrying a Desert Eagle 50 cal in a drop-leg holster instead of carrying a compact 9mm in a waist-band holster. To which he more or less disagree's and maintains his position that I'm just looking for attention. I tell him that I could really get attention if I openly carried a shotgun in there since long gun carry is legal. Again, he doesn't budge. I'm not happy that he thinks he knows more about me then what he can read on that pink card, but I resist the urge to tell him so.
I tell him that I think it used to be illegal to carry in a library (before my time as a LTCH holder) but it isn't now. He says there is a library policy against it. I tell him IC would trump that policy so it wouldn't matter if it existed. I did say that if he could find that policy, I would leave and contact my lawyer to find out if I am in the wrong. I should note, I said that in the least threatening manner I could muster, it wasn't a scare tactic, just a statement. He continues looking and can't find anything so he calls over another guy and asks if he knows the policy. This new guy doesn't know and goes to ask the (I think) Library Administrator about it. New guy comes back and says that she told him carry was legal but had to be concealed. I asked if this is just what she felt was true or if she showed him the policy or code. He said she just said it.
So, SD gives me my LTCH and gun back and says I can go. I ask him, politely I might add, if he would please destroy that card (he wrote all my information down from the LTCH) when he was done. He said he would. I let him know that I would be on the 2nd floor for a bit and if he found out anything, to please let me know. I go upstairs to play with my son. A bit later we are leaving the childrens' room when he meets me at the top of the stairs and hands me the card with my info on it. He thanks me for my co-operation.
In all, it wasn't a bad encounter. He pushed the limit of his actual authority but never exceeded it. I'm glad he didn't, because I wasn't going to budge. He was a real bully until he looked through the code and I suspect he made a call or two while I was upstairs and found out I was within my rights. He was a lot calmer but visibly dissatisfied when he returned that info card to me. I asked him if he confronted me because he spotted me or if someone said something. He said a couple of employees said something to him. He was surprised when I told him that was odd since I had carried in there for year without issue. I'm actually proud of myself since I am a smart-ass by nature and that nature tends to show when I know I'm right and someone is really pushing the limit.
Now I just need to become more versed and get clarification about the legal authority for a LEO to demand picture ID with a LTCH. My retainer lawyer doesn't seem to well versed on this issue and thinks it is fine for them demand it. By demand I mean I get arrested if I don't provide it and I have it with me and they aren't detaining me. He told me (along with several LEO's) that I had to provide ID if asked and I had it in my possession. I know they can't demand ID randomly, but I don't know if that applies to LTCH encounters. I don't know for sure, so I just give it to them. Maybe I should just stop carrying it with me. I really hate it when they ask for ID because they don't know if that LTCH is a fake or stolen.
