Selling handgun in classifieds question

[newguyjosh]

What do I need to know about completing a transaction for a handgun if I am able to sell it in the classifieds section? Are there any rules/laws in IN I need to follow? Does the person have to have a LTCH? Do I need to make up some sort of paperwork for us to sign to transfer the gun?

Thanks

 

[t413]

Just make sure the buyer has a valid Indiana Drivers license and a valid LTCH.
Also ask them if they have ever been convicted of a felony.
That is about all the due diligence you need for the state of Indiana.

 

[indyjoe]

You can't sell to a person that you know is not a "proper person" in the law. i.e. Someone who cannot legally possess a gun or to someone who isn't an Indiana resident. (Otherwise, it is selling across state borders, which is federal and FFL jurisdiction.)

The person doesn't have to have a LTCH or anything. However, it is generally a good idea to at least see an Indiana BMV License to prove residency. I would feel better if I sold to a person with a LTCH, just because it assures that they are a "proper person" in the eyes of the law.

No bill of sale or anything is required, but might be a good idea if this is a firearm you purchased through an FFL to show that you sold it, should it be used for nefarious activities in the future.

 

[dleeharrison]

I was going to purchase a handgun from an individual in the area where I live. The handgun was on "gunbroker.com" and I was very interested in purchasing the pistol. The FTF purchase would have excluded my paying mailing costs and paying an FFL for a transfer. The person was adamant about the requirement of having to go through an FFL - needless to say - he lost the sale to me.

Prior to this purchase attempt, I picked up a 357 mag pistol from a seller in the area through a FTF purchase (the pistol was also on "gunbroker.com" - I showed him my drivers license and my LTCH - we completed a bill of sale and everyone was happy with the transaction.

 

[samrothstein01]

Some people (wrongly) think a bill of sale gives them some sort of "protection" in the event the gun they sell is used in a crime. It doesn't. Not a bit, the IN AG and courts has already come down on that. IN law is explicit on the fact that if you don't know, you are in the clear. If you do violate those provision, no paper in the world is going to help you. If you are that scared, use an ffl.

.

 

[indyjoe]

I didn't mean to imply that a Bill of Sale makes it OK to sell to a felony that is going to use it in a crime. I just see it as an easy way to point the search for the owner of a firearm found in a crime. Say a pistol that I purchased at a gun shop was found to be connected to a crime. The first place the police have is a serial number of the transaction from the gun shop. The Bill of Sale will allow me to quickly help them in the right direction and away from me.

Maybe that is naive. Just seems to make sense to me.

 

[88E30M50]

Makes sense to me too. Without a bill of sale, you could find yourself in a tight spot if the paper trail on a gun ended with you. From the police standpoint, they would probably have the perspective that the gun you own was used in a crime and you could become part of the investigation. It's much easier to point them in the direction the gun went with documentation and in the end, they will probably find the last owner has a police report to account for the gun being stolen from them.

In the end, just make sure that you are selling to someone that is a proper person (ltch is the easiest way to see that) and document who it went to so the investigation can progress past you. It's probably a good idea to note on the bill of sale how you verified the legality of the sale, but not the details if the buyer objects.

 

[samrothstein01]

I completely understand that you weren't implying that it is ok to sell to someone impromper as long as there is a bill of sale. That wasn't my intention. Simply viewing and acknowledging an LTCH should be the maximum required.

My point was that a bill of sale gives a false sense of security and has no merit. As long as you sold the gun, and had no reason to believe it was sold to someone improper, you are not liable. A BoS is worth no more than the paper it is written on.

I understand your point about perhaps being able to quickly move LEO in the right direction, but how many people even sign their real name on a bill of sale? Additionally, a bill of sale is easy to make up and sign a fake name to if someone cared to do so. It just doesn't provide anything of substance or anything that is not refutable.

It is also presents it's own risk, and usually makes people uncomfortable. Most BoS documents I have seen presented include space that requires the purchaser to give their name, address, DL#, and LTCH#, or some combination of the above. Now you have just given a stranger your information, who knows you are a firearm enthusiast and that you likely have more than one at the address you have just given them. Or...at minimum, they now have at least the beginning of what they need for credit scams. Additionally, and probably the more likely scenario is that they now have everything they need to begin signing YOUR information on the next BoS they are required to sign or to make up BoS on firearms they did not really sell. Lastly, I don't know how other people handle their document storage and retention. Do they keep it safe, shred it at some point? Do they throw it in the trash and now someone may be able to find my address and that I have at least one gun in my home??

Maybe I'm paranoid. They are unnecessary. Just my

Edit: If you really do prefer a paper trail that will in fact hold merit and clear your name, perform the transaction through an FLL. Just an idea for those that are concerned about it.

 

[MrSmitty]

So... what you're saying is... that the guy I sold my Ak to with the black ankle bracelet, and the prison tats, and the Illinois plates might not be on the up and up?

 

[ATM]

So... what you're saying is... that the guy I sold my Ak to with the black ankle bracelet, and the prison tats, and the Illinois plates might not be on the up and up?

Depends... did he look Amish?

 

[indyjoe]

So... what you're saying is... that the guy I sold my Ak to with the black ankle bracelet, and the prison tats, and the Illinois plates might not be on the up and up?

That is perfectly fine. They make laws that keep guns out of areas where they don't want them in Illinois. It keeps everyone safe.

 

[jbombelli]

If I sell a gun to someone, I don't look at his LTCH, or his driver's license, I don't ask for or give a bill of sale. I don't look at his license plates, or ask him where he's from. If HE'S not legal, that's HIS problem. Not mine.

As long as he doesn't come out and say something stupid like "Man, I just did 5 years... that really sucked..." or "I can't wait to get this pistol back home to Illinois..." or something else to indicate selling to him might get ME in trouble, we're good to go.

 

[MrSmitty]

Depends... did he look Amish?

He looked a little mennonite, the cross tattooed on his forehead mighta been a clue!

 

[infidel]

If I sell a gun to someone, I don't look at his LTCH, or his driver's license, I don't ask for or give a bill of sale. I don't look at his license plates, or ask him where he's from. If HE'S not legal, that's HIS problem. Not mine.

As long as he doesn't come out and say something stupid like "Man, I just did 5 years... that really sucked..." or "I can't wait to get this pistol back home to Illinois..." or something else to indicate selling to him might get ME in trouble, we're good to go.

This pretty much sums it up for me.

Also, I will never buy a gun from an individual that requires a bill of sale.

 

[Que]

I only sell or buy from those on INGO. I used to provide and also ask for a bill of sale. After the first couple of times, I realized that the only information that was used on the form was the address. Now, I didn't feel comfortable having anybody's address and I CERTAINLY didn't feel like anyone needed to know where I live. So, I no longer ask for documentation and I've not been asked to produce anything on my last two private sales.

I'm not sure what I will do if someone has that Gen 3 G22 at that perfect price and asks to see my DL or LTCH. However, I do know I will no longer provide or fill out a bill of sale. I just don't feel comfortable with that anymore.

 

[ATM]

If I sell a gun to someone, I don't look at his LTCH, or his driver's license, I don't ask for or give a bill of sale. I don't look at his license plates, or ask him where he's from. If HE'S not legal, that's HIS problem. Not mine.

As long as he doesn't come out and say something stupid like "Man, I just did 5 years... that really sucked..." or "I can't wait to get this pistol back home to Illinois..." or something else to indicate selling to him might get ME in trouble, we're good to go.

Careful, not entirely true.

It is illegal to sell to an under age 18 buyer. No provision for not being known.
You can be held liable for this so you should verify.

It is also illegal to sell to a person you have reasonable cause to believe is a felon, drug/alcohol abuser, mental incompetent (otherwise prohibited person.)
This is the part you are not liable for verification.

IC 35-47-2-7

Prohibited sales or transfers of ownership
Sec. 7. (a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10, a person may not sell, give, or in any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun or assault weapon (as defined in IC 35-50-2-11) to any person under eighteen (18) years of age.
(b) It is unlawful for a person to sell, give, or in any manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun to another person who the person has reasonable cause to believe:
(1) has been:

(A) convicted of a felony; or
(B) adjudicated a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult, if the person seeking to obtain ownership or possession of the handgun is less than twenty-three (23) years of age;
(2) is a drug abuser;
(3) is an alcohol abuser; or
(4) is mentally incompetent.

The only code I know for sure on interstate firearms transfers (Federal):

§ 922. Unlawful acts

(a)
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides;

seems to preclude a requirement to check as well but no idea on case law.

 

[XtremeVel]

I'm not sure what I will do if someone has that Gen 3 G22 at that perfect price and asks to see my DL or LTCH. However, I do know I will no longer provide or fill out a bill of sale. I just don't feel comfortable with that anymore.

If that G22 comes along, I would not hesitate to SHOW them a D/L and or DL. In my mind, there is a difference between them just making sure you have them and them actually recording info from them. Heck, even when I buy from a FFL, I am particular who I buy from. I want peace of mind that my info will be somewhat safe guarded.