Scenario: What would you do?

[rbMPSH12]

I'm pretty new to CC and I was thinking about a scenario the other day while I was in Lowes. Those of us citizens who have chosen to carry often talk about the fact that we carry not only to protect ourselves, but also to protect other people. But we also say that if you find yourself in a situation and can get out of it without using your firearm, to get out. I find this a difficult tension, and you probably do too. So here's my scenario.

You're at a place like Lowes that has two front entrances that are 100 or 200 yards apart. You're right by one of the entrances/exits. A guy walks in the other entrance and opens fire. You're right by the exit, so you can easily get out of that situation without entering the fight. But you also know that you may be the only person with a gun anywhere near the scene. Do you leave or do you go toward the threat to fight? I know there are probably other variables like whether your family is with you etc... But I'm just curious what you all think.

 

[TTravis]

Too far away for a good safe shot. Take cover and prepare to defend yourself. Do not pursue. There are a lot more armed people there than you might think.

 

[iChokePeople]

Biggest. Lowe's. Ever.

To the rest, "depends".

 

[Maximinus Thrax]

^^I'm inclined to agree with TTravis on this one. Secure you and those around you. Don't pursue.^^

 

[Mr. Habib]

My priorities are, family, self, everyone else. I would respond accordingly.

 

[rbMPSH12]

Biggest. Lowe's. Ever.

Yeah I thought that after I just drove by Lowes after getting my hair cut. It's definitely not 100 to 200 yards. Haha. I guess it just felt like a long way when I was there the other day.

Also, I agree with family, self, others.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Yeah I thought that after I just drove by Lowes after getting my hair cut. It's definitely not 100 to 200 yards. Haha. I guess it just felt like a long way when I was there the other day.

We understand. You originally addressed the distance in city yards rather than country yards--you know, like the difference between city miles and country miles.

 

[jwh20]

I'm pretty new to CC and I was thinking about a scenario the other day while I was in Lowes. Those of us citizens who have chosen to carry often talk about the fact that we carry not only to protect ourselves, but also to protect other people. But we also say that if you find yourself in a situation and can get out of it without using your firearm, to get out. I find this a difficult tension, and you probably do too. So here's my scenario.

You're at a place like Lowes that has two front entrances that are 100 or 200 yards apart. You're right by one of the entrances/exits. A guy walks in the other entrance and opens fire. You're right by the exit, so you can easily get out of that situation without entering the fight. But you also know that you may be the only person with a gun anywhere near the scene. Do you leave or do you go toward the threat to fight? I know there are probably other variables like whether your family is with you etc... But I'm just curious what you all think.

First of all, 100-200 yds away is FAR too distant for you to take any shot with a handgun. You are definitely at risk from a shot coming from the shooter but if you return fire chances are you will miss, possibly hit someone beyond the shooter, draw his attention to YOU as a threat, possibly cause him to hit someone behind you. All of these are VERY undesirable!

If you were closer, I can't think of any scenario that calls for immediate and lethal force than the "active shooter" one. He's proven what he's there for, and will likely not stop until he's exhausted his supply of ammo and guns or been neutralized by someone at the scene. So here you must use your judgement, clouded as that might be due to the situation.

But in your scenario, I think taking cover and getting anyone around you under cover is the best first step. The shooter might just be there to take out one specific target and once he's done that, he's done.

If, however, the shooter is just methodically going from person to person in the store and killing anyone and everyone, then I believe I'd be motivated to take action. I'd try to use whatever cover and concealment is available, and in a Lowes that would be a lot, to move into a position where I had a clear shot from a short enough distance that I knew I could neutralize him and that there are no others beyond him that I might accidentally hit.

As always, you're going to have to use your best judgement. Of course, even in a case like this, you actions are going to be scrutinized. But if you believe that if you do NOTHING, more people will die immediately, I believe you MUST act.

I think it's a good thing to get in the habit of thinking about how something like this might go down. Look around while your shopping or standing in line at the checkout. What if that odd looking guy in the hoodie whips out a gun and starts firing. Where should I move to? What should I do? As with any skill, practice and mindset make all the difference.

 

[iChokePeople]

I'd grab one of the store microphone/PA handsets and announce that this store is a GUN FREE ZONE and no firearms are permitted in the store. He'd leave. Problem solved.

 

[TJSaltdog]

If he is just there to shoot everyone he can, then my family is first. But If I see children or just one child in his sight then Im sorry, Im running at him and when I get the distance im comfortable with shooting then Im shooting. Children are so vulnerable and I will protect all of them no matter what. My wife knows this and accepts it.

 

[jwh20]

I'd grab one of the store microphone/PA handsets and announce that this store is a GUN FREE ZONE and no firearms are permitted in the store. He'd leave. Problem solved.

Damn! Why didn't I think of that? I guess that's why I wouldn't make a good liberal...

 

[rbMPSH12]

First of all, 100-200 yds away is FAR too distant for you to take any shot with a handgun. You are definitely at risk from a shot coming from the shooter but if you return fire chances are you will miss, possibly hit someone beyond the shooter, draw his attention to YOU as a threat, possibly cause him to hit someone behind you. All of these are VERY undesirable!

I think it's a good thing to get in the habit of thinking about how something like this might go down. Look around while your shopping or standing in line at the checkout. What if that odd looking guy in the hoodie whips out a gun and starts firing. Where should I move to? What should I do? As with any skill, practice and mindset make all the difference.

I totally agree that 100 yards is way too far. I wasn't saying anything about taking a shot from that far. That would be crazy. I was talking about moving toward the shooter and engaging at a good handgun range. However, I agree with you that first priority is to take cover and assess the situation. I also like your advice about envisioning that happening when you're out and about, and thinking about how you would handle that situation. Thanks for the input.

 

[NiDanHeno]

Another great example of why I'm reading INGO everyday. It is great to be thinking through these scenarios. For what it is worth I also agree with the priority of those around you, cover > concealment and then take action as the situation dictates. For me as I think through the scenario presented, the only area that seems a bit grey to me (from a legal perspective although I'm not a lawyer by any means) is how the law would define pursuit. At least as I think through it (without any rounds whistling past me) I'm inclined to take action.

 

[Hoosier Cowboy]

Great question and I love that folks post these scenarios because we all need to think ahead in case this dreaded situation would ever occur and these days sadly it's VERY possible. I think going over these types of scenarios in your head and while at the stores or other public places are just as important as training your shot and other techniques if your going to carry in public.

Okay, first if I'm already going out the door with my family when he comes in the other entrance I'm going to escort my family out to our vehicle and tell them to drive to the next public place and wait while I'm outside dialing 911. While on 911 I'm telling the dispatcher that there is an active shooter in the store and giving them the very best description I can, I will then inform the dispatcher that I'm a legally armed citizen and I'm going to take cover and try to disfuse the situation. would be DAMN SURE to tell the dispatcher what I'm wearing as far as clothing so when police arrive they hopefully don't shoot me thinking I'm the active shooter. I would then re-enter the store under cover if possiable and try to observe the situation while still on 911. If he's going around shooting anyone and everyone I do everything I can to find a safe position where I can take him out. Another thing I think we all forget about is there is likely to be another armed citizen inside the store also and if you re-enter the store with weapon pulled there is a chance some armed citizen might think your one of the shooters and shoot you....it's a situation no matter how much we go over in our mind we honestly aren't trained to deal with but if there is a active shooter and my family is out of harms way I couldn't live with myself If I didn't do something....

 

[jwh20]

I totally agree that 100 yards is way too far. I wasn't saying anything about taking a shot from that far. That would be crazy. I was talking about moving toward the shooter and engaging at a good handgun range. However, I agree with you that first priority is to take cover and assess the situation. I also like your advice about envisioning that happening when you're out and about, and thinking about how you would handle that situation. Thanks for the input.

I'm not saying this is ALL I ever think about. Sometimes it's nothing more than "gosh, I'm really hungry, I hope I can make it until dinner." But I try to think about "what if" scenarios when I see something or someone that is just "not right". I don't think it's good to go through life thinking anyone and everyone is about to whip out a weapon and start a massacre, but I'd bet in the vast majority of cases where this has happened, SOMEONE saw something "odd" and chose to simply ignore it. Just my theory anyway.

I'm never out looking for trouble, but sometimes trouble shows up when & where you are. Those are the times when having thought about what to do, rehearsed it in your mind, and knowing exactly what you can and can't do with your weapon as a result of practice will give you that tiny edge where you live and the bad-guy doesn't.

 

[roisigns]

Shoot.

 

[ATM]

My priorities are, family, self, everyone else. I would respond accordingly.

My priorities are, God, country, family. I would respond accordingly as well.

 

[cosermann]

Well, with the distance involved you can't justify use of force based on death or serious bodily injury to yourself since it's so easy to slip out the door.

So, you're left with using force to prevent death or serious bodily injury to a third person, or the commission of a forcible felony.

Therefore, it boils down to the reasons behind why one chooses to carry a means of defense.

Is it just for you and yours, or is it also for a wider purpose?

Individual answers to that question vary.

 

[Mr. Habib]

My priorities are, God, country, family. I would respond accordingly as well.

Same here. I just figured that if I was in Lowes with God, He wouldn't need me to protect Him!

 

[Dead Duck]

Judgment call - for some.

Running away while knowing lives are being lost, when you could have done something, anything, is selfish and immoral.

I know most people, armed or not armed, would do what they could to remove the threat at all costs with whatever means necessary. Doing nothing will haunt you for the rest of your life - or at least, it SHOULD haunt you for the rest of your life.


Calling 911 and being a good witness while saving yourself and letting others die - Is Deplorable.

I would definitely stop the threat but most people won't post this because by publicly announcing this on an open forum can be used as intent later in court in some future case.

oopsy