PW AAR Critique

[VUPDblue]

Ok guys, several of you have PMd me asking why I got so bent out of shape over the PW AAR. You asked me for specifics so I'm gonna give you a few examples of what I saw that I had an issue with, and how I feel it should have been done differently. This is in no way a digg or insult to anyone, rather my observations on how the day could have been improved.

First-up is the following one second of video.
PW AAR Video :: MOV04973.mp4 video by vupdblue - Photobucket
My problem with what is shown here is what I consider to be sloppy gunhandling. On any organized range environment I have ever been a part of, muzzle control has (and should always be) priority #1. Finishing a drill and just turning around and walking away, without re-holstering and securing your sidearm, is not safe. The arguement that it was at slidelock and the mag was empty doesn't hold water with me because I value Col. Coopers basic rules of firearm safety. Whether someone was directly covered by the muzzle or not is irrelevant, the maneuver itself created an unsafe environment. How many times have I read on this board and others people complaining about being muzzle swept in a gunshop or gunshow where they "know" the firearms are unloaded? Same deal.

Next is the following video:
PW AAR Video :: MOV04976.mp4 video by vupdblue - Photobucket
Again, sloppy muzzle control. When a drill is finished, it is finished. Re-holster and secure your sidearm. Don't hang it down and walk away. It's a basic of training/shooting/range etiquette and will get you booted off most ranges if not adhered to. Now don't read too far into this next part because I don't know what other drills or basics you guys were taught earlier in the day. The moving and shooting drill is a relatively advanced drill and most schools will wait until at least a 200 level class to teach this in the extent that you guys were running. You guys need some basics of how to move your feet and get your balance while moving. It also appeared that you weren't really trying to get good hits, rather you appeared to be hurling mass quantities of lead at the target. If the latter was your goal, then you succeeded. The portion of IBM runnin' and gunnin' kinda made my eyes bug-out. His balance was off so bad that he almost fell over and I'm convinced that the shot he squeezed off while tripping was an AD.

PW AAR Video :: MOV04978.mp4 video by vupdblue - Photobucket
The dude in this video had much better balance and footwork but again, the muzzle control was ay to lax.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiA8ddnoOXQ"]YouTube - INGO PW Shoot - CQC - Three Attackers, Creating Space - RelicHound[/ame]
Again, more poor muzzle control. You guys get the idea by now, I'm not gonna point this out any more, it is what it is.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/alexia2003/DSCF0388.jpg
It should be mandatory that EVERYONE be wearing eye protection. No exceptions.
My other observation was; were you guys shooting towards railroad tracks? What was on the other side of them? Were they active tracks?

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab177/clark1794/DSC00488.jpg
This is another example of poor muzzle control. Since it is a still, I can't tell if you guys were still running drills or just recreationally shooting, but SE fumbling with an unholstered sidearm, behind the line, is extremely unsafe. He's not even facing downrange, but that wouldn't make it much better, if at all.



Now for the post-critique disclaimer.
I am not a professional training dude, but I have spent my fair share of time on a range as both a student and RO. Any time I am on a range my number one concern is safety. Any education you can take with you after safety concerns have been met is a bonus. Some of those who will be reading this know me personally or have been on a range with me either as a fellow student or on a range that has been under my command, or simply recreationally shooting on an unsupervised range. I'm sincerely happy that you guys (and gals) all had a fabulous time and that you might have even learned a thing or 10. I'm also ecstatic that no one got injured. To that end, I would suggest implementing some more rigorous safety measures and guidelines for next time. There is nothing wrong with getting together to have fun and doing some shooting but please, do it safely.
Also, as noted in the other thread I started earlier today, my intention is not to be disrespectful but rather to point out some (what I consider to be) shortcomings.

Have fun and be safe.

 

[Benny]

See, why didn't you just say this the first time around?







I'll add that, while some may consider what you pointed out a bit nitpicky, practice makes permanent. Once you start getting lax in one area, that could snowball into other bad gun-handling as well.

 

[IndyMonkey]

I dont agree with the eye protection, we are all adults and should decide if we want to wear them or not.

 

[VUPDblue]

See, why didn't you just say this the first time around?







I'll add that, while some may consider what you pointed out a bit nitpicky, practice makes permanent. Once you start getting lax in one area, that could snowball into other bad gun-handling as well.

I honestly have no excuse. I didn't feel like I was being a dick at the time, but then I went on vacation for three days and re-read my comments upon my return. I was like

 

[Benny]

I dont agree with the eye protection, we are all adults and should decide if we want to wear them or not.

I must have missed that part, but I agree...While I would never hit the range with out proper eye and ear protection, I think it's any adult's choice to not wear it if they don't feel like it...As long as the property owner doesn't require it, of course.

I honestly have no excuse. I didn't feel like I was being a dick at the time, but then I went on vacation for three days and re-read my comments upon my return. I was like

Dude, everyone makes mistakes...You apologized, so it should be water under the bridge for anyone you actually care you might have offended...Some people will hold a grudge forever, but I don't think that is the case with any of these guys.

 

[SavageEagle]

Tracks were active. Other side of the tracks was the river. Stopped shooting when trains were incoming and trust me, you could hear them long before they got there, even with heavy shooting.

 

[lovemachine]

I agree it's the adult's choice to wear safetly glasses. OTOH, IMHO, it's very stupid to not wear safety glasses. There was a thread on here about someone getting shot by ricochet. Imagine that hitting you in the eye.
That would hurt like hell. But like I said, that's my opinion. I still wish I was able to come out that day.

 

[HandK]

Thanks for the Critique !!

 

[Kingrat]

Tracks were active. Other side of the tracks was the river. Stopped shooting when trains were incoming and trust me, you could hear them long before they got there, even with heavy shooting.

actually, the other side of the tracks was corn/soybean fields, the river was behind us

 

[RelicHound]

actually, the other side of the tracks was corn/soybean fields, the river was behind us

shhh dont confuse the lil feller! I'm not so sure he could handle that.

 

[esrice]

Good thread! Like Nick has already pointed out, having folks critique you can be a great exercise in learning.

The moving and shooting drill is a relatively advanced drill and most schools will wait until at least a 200 level class to teach this in the extent that you guys were running. You guys need some basics of how to move your feet and get your balance while moving.

This was one of my first reactions to the posted videos.

Gun handling is a walk-before-you-run kind of deal. Based solely on what I saw in the videos, it looked like you guys hit the ground running without any foundational building blocks like a proper draw stroke or balanced footwork. In fact, it didn't look like any particular 'technique' was taught, as I saw several different guys do it completely differently from each other. Some guys were even side-stepping backwards (or skipping), which is terribly unstable and potentially dangerous. I also didn't understand the value of 'chasing' the moving target-- if an attacker is moving away from me in such a manner, I surely won't be running up next to him.

YouTube - INGO PW Shoot - CQC - Three Attackers, Creating Space - RelicHound
Again, more poor muzzle control. You guys get the idea by now, I'm not gonna point this out any more, it is what it is.

Gun handling should be 'sharp'. Movements should be deliberate, efficient, and consistent. I'm not saying you guys should be putting Chris Costa to shame out there, but 'lazy' gun handling is a recipe for disaster.

When it comes to muzzle control, I personally have NO problems with guys doing 360 scans and breaking 180. But, with that comes MUCH responsibility, and therefore a muzzle control technique, such as SUL, must be utilized. Muzzle awareness should be something you can physically see in each shooter-- it should be a deliberate act.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/alexia2003/DSCF0388.jpg
It should be mandatory that EVERYONE be wearing eye protection. No exceptions.

I agree with Nick here. Yes, adults should be free to make their own choices, but I don't want to stop my training or have to put your eyeball back into socket because you chose not to wear eyepro. In a training environment, they should be mandatory.

My other observation was; were you guys shooting towards railroad tracks? What was on the other side of them? Were they active tracks?

The lack of obvious backstop looked bad in the pictures, but I realize that being there can tell a different story. Was this at an actual shooting range, or just someone's property? Shooting into/across active tracks just doesn't seem like the best idea.

Once you start getting lax in one area, that could snowball into other bad gun-handling as well.

This is pretty much the crux of the issue. Sloppy gun handling on the range, or in a training environment, simply ensures sloppy gun handling in the real world. Your gun handling should be at its VERY BEST while training, because you have all the luxuries in the world there, like time, and no one shooting back at you.

Now, I realize that one of our respected INGOers, HandK49031, drove several hours to make this meet and provided not only the instruction, but also targets, backers, and a fancy moving setup, all FREE of charge. I don't want these critiques to, in any way, take away from his act of generosity. What he did was awesome, and generally unheard of. He is the type of person that makes INGO great. It would have been easier for him to stay up north and spend the hot day kicked back in his easy chair with a beer, but he didn't.

I don't know all of HandK49031's qualifications, other than I know he is currently a police officer with a northern Indiana department. I would assume that he does or has been a part of police training. Whatever the case, this thread is not an attack on his methods.

Now that I've shared what I saw as deficiencies, let me share my suggestions for next time.

Start slow-- break down the draw stroke into steps, and master those first. Do the draw several times without even firing a shot. Different instructors teach various nuances, but they all boil down to an efficient and 'clean' draw stroke. Learn when your finger should and shouldn't be on the trigger. Learn at what point you should be decocking or activating/deactivate your manual safeties.

Once you've got those down, work on learning to scan and access, then slowly reholstering while maintaining visual awareness.

Once you've got that down, move on to mag changes/reloads (the various types, and when to use each).

Once you've got those down, try shooting single-handedly, first with your right, then with your left hand, and how to properly transition from hand to hand.

Once you've got that down, incorporate movement into your drawstroke (commonly referred to as "getting off the X").

See the pattern here? Use simple skills as building blocks, working your way up to more complicated maneuvers. As mentioned above, some of the stuff you guys were doing was WAY ahead of its time, which made the sloppy gun handling even more apparent.

Also, you guys mentioned that it was HOT that day. Some of the overall fatigue could've come from being dehydrated. In the classes I've attended the instructors always pounded hydration into our heads, making us chug water during any and all breaks in the shooting.

My #1 piece of advice would be this: Define a clear path for your event. This holds true for ANY event. In the PW case, I think the line between 'fun shoot' and 'training' became a bit fuzzy, and this caused folks to drop their guard a bit more than they would if they had just paid $400 for a 2-day pistol class. If you want to have a fun "open shoot", then do that. If you want to have a "free training day", then do that. Just make sure that the different standards for each event are adhered to.

After all that is said, keep in mind that I wasn't there, and I'm simply giving advice based on a few pictures and videos posted online. I'm glad that everyone had a good time, and a big thanks to the organizers for bringing the INGO spirit to the Southern Indiana crowd!

 

[Tactical Dave]

I dont agree with the eye protection, we are all adults and should decide if we want to wear them or not.

You will poke an eye out.........


On the event this is how I see it, if you see sloppy or dangerous gun handeling and you stick around then don't blame anyone but yourself if you get hurt, it's a free country do what you want....... if you get asked or told to leave by the others then good for them, if they say nothing then everyone assumes the risk....


It is like the people that work in a bar then get mad when they get luncg cancer from the second hand smoke..... you knew the danger if you had at least half a brain.... nobody forced to to keep working there......

 

[HandK]

It's great that you guys know all the answers without asking any of the questions!!!

 

[Tactical Dave]

It great that you guys know all the answers without asking any of the questions!!!

Arm chair QB's all the way.....

 

[esrice]

It great that you guys know all the answers without asking any of the questions!!!

Fair enough. As I said, I was not there, so my observations are based solely on the posted pictures and videos.

In an effort to better understand (and to limit my assumptions), I will ask some questions.

Was the intent of the day an 'open shoot', or pistol training?

During the training portion, was a proper drawstroke covered?

What was the overall experience level of the participants prior to the class?

Aside from being a police officer and generously donating your time and resources, do you have a training background?

Did you yourself notice any muzzle sweeping or other dangerous activity during the day? Did anyone get called on a safety violation?

Again, I'm not looking for a witch-hunt here. Some folks noticed a few safety issues on some pictures and videos. If this had simply been an open shoot, then its up to the individual to act appropriately. But, if this was a semi-organized training session, which it appeared in the pictures/videos to be, then folks will critique it as such-- just like they would an AAR from Gunsite or Louis Awerbuck.

In the end, everyone came home in one piece, and had an awesome time-- that's an important part!

 

[HandK]

It is already a witch hunt!!! it started out that way and will end up that way!! Great questions!! I would have started of with those before I posted my opinion!! You have already formed your opinion of what took place that day!! It is that "your opinion" there is no way I can win here!! or even have a fare trial, So I will leave it up to the experts (that being you guys who were not there) If you just commented on something that was unsafe then fine!! but both of you have moved way beyond that!! You know what they say about assuming!!! good day!!

 

[VUPDblue]

It is already a witch hunt!!! it started out that way and will end up that way!! Great questions!! I would have started of with those before I posted my opinion!! You have already formed your opinion of what took place that day!! It is that "your opinion" there is no way I can win here!! or even have a fare trial, So I will leave it up to the experts (that being you guys who were not there) If you just commented on something that was unsafe then fine!! but both of you have moved way beyond that!! You know what they say about assuming!!! good day!!

I'm sorry you feel that way. This is your opportunity to come to the discussion and help us, and everyone else, understand how to interpret what we saw. Believe me, this is no witch hunt...

 

[Pami]

It is already a witch hunt!!! it started out that way and will end up that way!! Great questions!! I would have started of with those before I posted my opinion!! You have already formed your opinion of what took place that day!! It is that "your opinion" there is no way I can win here!! or even have a fare trial, So I will leave it up to the experts (that being you guys who were not there) If you just commented on something that was unsafe then fine!! but both of you have moved way beyond that!! You know what they say about assuming!!! good day!!

Then educate those of us who haven't posted an opinion yet. You may not change the mind of a Brady on whether or not gun control is needed, but you might change the mind of the guy standing next to him who hasn't made his mind up yet.

 

[HandK]

I'm sorry you feel that way. This is your opportunity to come to the discussion and help us, and everyone else, understand how to interpret what we saw. Believe me, this is no witch hunt...

You start off with the fact that you know it all!! so that does not leave any room to learn anything new!! now does it!! Its great-that you got around to asking questions (with a little prodding) But is clear that you already have all the answers, Where I am put in a position where I have to defend what you think you know about the situation!! rather than answer any questions!! doesn't leave me much room does it!! You where not there did not know what was being taught but yet have passed judgment on all of it!! good for you that is some great insight you have!! good day!!

 

[esrice]

If the opinions I've formed and posted here are based on incorrect information, please give me the correct information. If I've made a gross assumption, please let me know the real deal.

If you'd like, you can quote my above posts and simply highlight the parts that are incorrect, or you could answer the questions that I posted, which you asked for.

Or, you can tell me that you'd rather not have your training methods critiqued, or your event talked about in a negative way, in which case I would immediately stop posting any further opinion, and even remove my opinions from before.

My intent here is only to help educate. If folks don't feel that my postings are doing that, I can remove them.

Remember that although there are only a handful of people posting in this thread, there are probably hundreds reading it. We need your insight so that all the readers can begin to form their opinions.