Power of Attorney: Buying guns

[Jack Burton]

This thought was triggered by the other thread about sending a friend to buy a gun. We all know this is illegal.

However, a "power of attorney" is a recognized legal action that gives a designiated person the power and authority to legally, in all ways, to act or sign in your name. The power granted can be general in nature, or specific (such as signing documents to sell a home while you're away in the military.)

So how does a fully legal POA work if the person has either general (can do almost anything) or specific (buy items or a specific firearm)?

The POA is legal. The POA is recognized at the state and federal level. It is recognized by the BATF?

 

[Double T]

Durable power of attorney typically involves someone with either a mental or physical deficit. As such, I believe that the person cannot purchase a firearm (regardless of who the actual buyer is).

In my experience, the people with POA's I have dealt with should be no where near a firearm that they could acquire and fire.

POA typically involves financial and medical decisions. If a person is unfit to decide for themselves whether they should get medical treatment, or remember to pay bills...would they remember the 4 rules?

 

[Enforcer831]

Not all POA are for financial or medical reasons. When I bought my house in Indiana, I gave my Mother-in-law POA to sign the closing docs and act as my agent since I was still in Florida packing after my son was born. I could envision someone who was a resident of the state giving someone POA to conduct a transaction for them if something important family event happened. So given the OPs question and constraining it to a POa that is not do to financial or mental issues, would there be a problem?

 

[Drakkule]

Then the person buying the firearm would have to answer no to question 1, no go in my opinion.

 

[Jack Burton]

Just got off the phone with an ATF agent in Indy and she said that it is a no go (in her opinion). She said that the concept of a POA is focusing in on the "buyer" of the gun which is not their focus. She said their focus is the "possessor" of the gun and that he is not a prohibited person. Even if it was allowed that Joe the POA truthfully answers all the questions about Fred the buyer in a truthful way, and signs for Fred in a legal way, the FFL is still handing the gun to Joe, who may or may not be prohibited, and the FFL has no way to verify that.

As a side note, we got into the concept of an illiterate person. He can have someone else fill out the form as long as each question is read to him and he states the correct answer. He makes his "x" at the bottom, which is his legal signature. The form must be witnessed and signed by two other people, neither of which can be the FFL.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Just got off the phone with an ATF agent in Indy and she said that it is a no go (in her opinion). She said that the concept of a POA is focusing in on the "buyer" of the gun which is not their focus. She said their focus is the "possessor" of the gun and that he is not a prohibited person. Even if it was allowed that Joe the POA truthfully answers all the questions about Fred the buyer in a truthful way, and signs for Fred in a legal way, the FFL is still handing the gun to Joe, who may or may not be prohibited, and the FFL has no way to verify that.

As a side note, we got into the concept of an illiterate person. He can have someone else fill out the form as long as each question is read to him and he states the correct answer. He makes his "x" at the bottom, which is his legal signature. The form must be witnessed and signed by two other people, neither of which can be the FFL.

Can the FFL be the person to read the questions to the illiterate?

 

[CarmelHP]

Durable power of attorney typically involves someone with either a mental or physical deficit. As such, I believe that the person cannot purchase a firearm (regardless of who the actual buyer is).

In my experience, the people with POA's I have dealt with should be no where near a firearm that they could acquire and fire.

POA typically involves financial and medical decisions. If a person is unfit to decide for themselves whether they should get medical treatment, or remember to pay bills...would they remember the 4 rules?

An POA forms a principal-agent relationship and can be for any reason. However, 27 CFR 478.124 requires that the individual who is the transferee be who fills out the Form 4473. If the transferee is not an individual, then an agent may fill out the form, 27 CFR 478.124(g).

 

[HamYankee]

Related topic, so I'll bump this thread.
My friend's parent owned firearms and got Alzheimer's. My friend has power of attorney and wanted to sell me a couple guns, but his attorney said he needs to sell through a 'broker'. My friend called the ATF and ATF said he did not. I personally would default to ATF.
Anybody have any experience with this? Any statute I can look up?

 

[MohawkSlim]

his attorney said he needs to sell through a 'broker'. My friend called the ATF and ATF said he did not.

I had a similar situation recently. I'm guessing the attorney was doing a little CYA, not so much from concern of ATF prosecution but from the aspect of probate and family/friends in the future. "Dad went crazy and you stole all his guns to sell them to your buddies and for your own profit." If they were sold through a broker it would appear to be more fair and impartial.

Probably one of those deals where it's not the law so much as "I've seen this happen a few times and this is the best way to handle it." It's also quite possible a family law attorney has no idea what firearms laws are.

There's a lot of "Well..... we could do this___" involved in the final stages of a terminally ill relative. Ask five attorneys they'll have five different opinions and all, some, or none will be completely in accordance with the law because the law itself is convoluted and sometimes one part conflicts with another. That's why we have judges.

If your buddy isn't likely to have issues with his family I say buy away. If he has a mom/dad/sister/brother/uncle/etc., that may have issues it's probably best to stay away from this whole deal.