PD Training Carbine II AAR

[jblomenberg16]

I volunteered to start the AAR thread, so here goes.

First...thanks to Matt and Justin, and our photographer Brandy for putting on a great class. As this was a Carbine "2" course, we started immediately with range drills after a quick run down of some safety and ground rules for the course.

First we confirmed our sight zeros for both 25 and 50 yds. This would be handy throughout the course as we shot from anywhere from 5 to 50yds. Remembering sight offset at ranges closer than the sight in distance would also be important.

Much of the class focused on shooting and moving, and shooting from behind and around cover. Just as in other classes, our instructors intentionally put us in situations that many of us never practice at the range.




Such as:

• Strong hand to weak hand transition with a carbine.
• Shooting while moving, not shoot - move - stop - shoot - move, etc.
• Shooting in simulated rooms and halls, where targets could only be engaged through the "openings" in the rooms, such as doorway or hallway.
• Transitioning between carbine and pistol and back again
• Shooting in non-conventional positions, such as rollever prone, semi kneeling, and a few of us even had a modified seated position
• Doing strenuous activity to get pulse and breathing up and then having to take steady, precisely aimed shots.

Personally I learned a few key things today:

1. A 2 point sling is not ideal for transitions to weak hand without some significant movements to add slack to, or flat out remove the sling.
2. I really can shoot my carbine pretty well from close range (>25yds) with my weak side. A red dot sight helps tremendously here, as it is much easier to get a good sight picture with the weak eye, and/ or to cant the gun to the stong eye. Many of us scored very good hits from our weak side, and I know for a fact it was the first time I'd ever shot weak side with my carbine.
3. When shooting and moving, don't stop to reload out in the open. Keep moving, and either find cover or transition to your handgun if that is available.

As with the other PD courses, it is a tremendous value for the low cost. Anyone looking to get some quality training at a very reasonable cost should strongly consider attending on of PD's courses. You will learn something, and be a better, safer shooter as a result.


To the new INGOer's I met today, it was a pleasure meeting you and shooting with you, and to those I had met before, it was great to see you again!

 

[absrio]

I just got the rifle cleaned up. When I left the Jeep said 105 then down the road it dropped to 98. It was hot. Turns out I went through 305 rounds of .223 and 68 of 9mm. I enjoyed shooting the steel even though I didn't make $10. Just like Carbine 2 last October the class was well worth the money.

Also Matt what size of IPSC steel was that. You have me interested in picking up a set.

 

[pierce195]

The steel was a 3/4 IPSC target from Bobcat Steel.

 

[Hop]

It was fun, it was HOT, I think I almost blacked out once even though I drank a ton of fluids. I learned a lot about my gear and how best to use it so it was all worth it.

Transitioning weak side made me like my Trijicon with the red dot up top quite a bit. I could cant the gun and still get my dominant eye to the dot way up top making shooting from behind cover a lot easier.

My single point sling also worked really well when transitioning strong/weak/strong. Being hot, I wore shorts. Maybe a bad idea as I have several hot Battlecomp looking "brands" around my knees.

The rifle ran great, the Steyr pistol had a couple issues with some truncated ammo. Clearing malfunctions is always good practice though.

I'll definitely be back for another class!

 

[esrice]

Thanks for the AARs guys! Looking forward to the pics!

 

[jd4320t]

Today was a LOT of fun. We spent most of the day running drills and shooting on the move. Shooting on the move with mag changes, transitions and malfunctions is fun! Even though I was tired at the end I was very happy with my progress.

I learned:

A Battle Comp sends a shockwave back and is louder than an SBR
The Noveske QD endplate is great for transitioning to weak hand
I am out of shape!

Thanks to everyone for being safe.

Thanks again Matt and Justin

 

[Hop]

^ LOL. From where I was, the only thing I noticed about the Battlecomp was the muzzle barely moved.

I had an MI QD mount installed with the sling snapped onto the left side. I think the Noveske version might work better. I have one but staked my other latch plate.

The last two drills were good and I got the head shot to finish the day!

 

[jblomenberg16]

^ LOL. From where I was, the only thing I noticed about the Battlecomp was the muzzle barely moved.

I had an MI QD mount installed with the sling snapped onto the left side. I think the Noveske version might work better. I have one but staked my other latch plate.

The last two drills were good and I got the head shot to finish the day!

And a great head shot it was. Too bad the rest of us had already cut his head off at the neck...

 

[absrio]

At least the bolt survived.

 

[Vlad the Impaler]

It was interesting to do more shooting on the move this past weekend, especially with the hostage targets exposing the ill effect of wide shots.

My comments, lessons and gear issues:

1) You may tell the instructor that you’re ready, but you are not REALLY ready until you have a mag in the magwell and have chambered a round. (Had to get the most embarrassing one out of the way first)

2) As mentioned by jblomenberg, the two point sling is not ideal for weak side shooting. I have not used a single point sling which would certainly be better on the weak side, however, I don't think I would enjoy the (Flava-Flave's clock) lack of stability when transitioning to my side arm or using my hands for other tasks, especially on the move. I'd have to try both and pick my evil. I will stick with the two point and its similarity to my dusty hunting gear for now.

3) My magwell grip with the right hand works great for making the left hand transition but sucks for making the shot. When using a magwell grip with my left hand (normal RH shooting), I ride my thumb straight up behind the hand guard. Doing similarly with the weak side shot gets me nasty stove pipes and a thumb full of hot case.

3a) The 2 stove pipes (yup, did it twice) I caused by using this "method" were not freed easily with a right hand sweep and I had to pull the bolt back.
​

3b) One of the two stove pipes was cleared after pulling the charging handle too far, stripping another round and causing a nasty double feed. A mag release, bolt lock, unsuccessful double charging handle pull and finally a mag well finger dig-out was required to get me back in action. Good thing I had the bullet-proof cover of the stepped plywood barricade or the hostage taker would have shot me and the crazy knife guy would have sliced me to pieces for the time it took.
​

4) I used a relatively cheap (about $100) Bushnell micro red dot for this class that had not arrived in time for last year's carbine 1 class. The red dot was great for aiming under the barricade and for weak side shooting using my dominant eye. For those exercises, it would have been much more difficult to find the front sight post. For strong-side, up-close shots, I think I slightly prefer the irons. For the longer shots of the last exercise (heart rate increased 50+ yard shots) the red dot gave me great feedback on my breathing.

5) Gear problem... When transitioning to side arm, I went to safe on my AR first noticing the selector position was a bit beyond vertical. Upon going back to the AR, the selector went beyond the fire position again and I could not fire. It could be rotated to the auto position (that I wish existed, but doesn't) and I tried to return the selector, but it wouldn't budge off the back 90 degrees of travel. I need to pull the detent pin and spring and make sure the pin and the selector recesses are in good shape and engage each other properly and the spring isn't hanging up on anything.

6) Sam Adams disappears really easy after several hours of shooting with temps moving to 100 F.

Like Carbine I, this was an enjoyable and informative class at a great price. I wish I had access to a range where these skills could be reinforced with some regularity. Bench shooting down a lane is good, but certainly limited.

 

[jblomenberg16]

It was interesting to do more shooting on the move this past weekend, especially with the hostage targets exposing the ill effect of wide shots.

My comments, lessons and gear issues:

1) You may tell the instructor that you’re ready, but you are not REALLY ready until you have a mag in the magwell and have chambered a round. (Had to get the most embarrassing one out of the way first)

2) As mentioned by jblomenberg, the two point sling is not ideal for weak side shooting. I have not used a single point sling which would certainly be better on the weak side, however, I don't think I would enjoy the (Flava-Flave's clock) lack of stability when transitioning to my side arm or using my hands for other tasks, especially on the move. I'd have to try both and pick my evil. I will stick with the two point and its similarity to my dusty hunting gear for now.

3) My magwell grip with the right hand works great for making the left hand transition but sucks for making the shot. When using a magwell grip with my left hand (normal RH shooting), I ride my thumb straight up behind the hand guard. Doing similarly with the weak side shot gets me nasty stove pipes and a thumb full of hot case.

3a) The 2 stove pipes (yup, did it twice) I caused by using this "method" were not freed easily with a right hand sweep and I had to pull the bolt back.
​

3b) One of the two stove pipes was cleared after pulling the charging handle too far, stripping another round and causing a nasty double feed. A mag release, bolt lock, unsuccessful double charging handle pull and finally a mag well finger dig-out was required to get me back in action. Good thing I had the bullet-proof cover of the stepped plywood barricade or the hostage taker would have shot me and the crazy knife guy would have sliced me to pieces for the time it took.
​

4) I used a relatively cheap (about $100) Bushnell micro red dot for this class that had not arrived in time for last year's carbine 1 class. The red dot was great for aiming under the barricade and for weak side shooting using my dominant eye. For those exercises, it would have been much more difficult to find the front sight post. For strong-side, up-close shots, I think I slightly prefer the irons. For the longer shots of the last exercise (heart rate increased 50+ yard shots) the red dot gave me great feedback on my breathing.

5) Gear problem... When transitioning to side arm, I went to safe on my AR first noticing the selector position was a bit beyond vertical. Upon going back to the AR, the selector went beyond the fire position again and I could not fire. It could be rotated to the auto position (that I wish existed, but doesn't) and I tried to return the selector, but it wouldn't budge off the back 90 degrees of travel. I need to pull the detent pin and spring and make sure the pin and the selector recesses are in good shape and engage each other properly and the spring isn't hanging up on anything.

6) Sam Adams disappears really easy after several hours of shooting with temps moving to 100 F.

Like Carbine I, this was an enjoyable and informative class at a great price. I wish I had access to a range where these skills could be reinforced with some regularity. Bench shooting down a lane is good, but certainly limited.

The thing that did impress me was that you cleared the double feed very quickly (I'm sure it felt like an eternity to you) but all of us were in unison chanting "Tap-rack-bang" as you were clearing it. You stuck to the training on how to clear, including the fingers up the magwell. I bet it was less than 20 seconds and had the doublefeed taken care of and were back to taking out the crazy guy with a knife. Hopefully in the haste you didn't throw an errant round into the hotty-hostage though.

Look at it this way. You didn't go empty on your AR, and then your side-arm during the same course of fire, and then stand there dumbfounded, trying to decide "Do I just throw my Glock at the target now, or reload." Eventually I reloaded and pumped a few extra rounds into the BG just for good measure.

 

[Vlad the Impaler]

You didn't go empty on your AR, and then your side-arm during the same course of fire, and then stand there dumbfounded, trying to decide "Do I just throw my Glock at the target now, or reload." Eventually I reloaded and pumped a few extra rounds into the BG just for good measure.

You're too hard on yourself. I thought you were smooth with the mag changes. I thought jd4320t was really good with strong/weak transitions. Maybe he already has practiced often being a left hander. There was plenty to learn from what you were doing individually as well as watching everyone else.

Nobody looked smooth draging the log and chain.

I cheated a couple times and dropped a mag with 10 or so rounds when "behind the wall" just because I knew I'd run out when exposed. If I did a true tactical reload, I'd have kept the mags instead of dropping them. Probabaly not smart in a gun battle, but plausible when you know exactly how many shots are in the exercise.

 

[Dragon]

Damn, you guys really have me wishing I hadn't missed this class. Next time FOR SURE!

 

[jblomenberg16]

You're too hard on yourself. I thought you were smooth with the mag changes. I thought jd4320t was really good with strong/weak transitions. Maybe he already has practiced often being a left hander. There was plenty to learn from what you were doing individually as well as watching everyone else.

Nobody looked smooth draging the log and chain.

I cheated a couple times and dropped a mag with 10 or so rounds when "behind the wall" just because I knew I'd run out when exposed. If I did a true tactical reload, I'd have kept the mags instead of dropping them. Probabaly not smart in a gun battle, but plausible when you know exactly how many shots are in the exercise.

I think that is one of the biggest reasons to train...we can watch others and learn from what they do well, and collectively learn from what didn't go so well.

As I think back on a few of the situations we all seemed to think went pretty poorly for us individually, it seems that for the person in the situation, it felt much worse than it actually was. To the rest of the class it was a great chance to learn and make small corrections in technique, etc. It seemed like with each new shooter, the course of fire was done more quickly and accurately

The race car driver's motto of "smooth = fast" also applies. Changing a mag with a tactical reload behind cover is smooth, and faster than doing it while standing exposed. Transitioning smoothly from strong to weak side, or from carbine to pistol is a lot faster than getting flustered and in a hurry. Stopping and panicing will get you no where, and I think we all started to realize that if we did have a malfunction or make a mistake, that we would address it and keep moving.



Dragon...you defeinitely need to make the next class...well worth the investment of time and $$!

 

[Hop]

I've got some more video, this time with actual shooting. These were from the 1st couple drills. Not enough battery life to get the more advanced drills. Sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF4DD6A1D7EBEADB4

 

[esrice]

I've got some more video, this time with actual shooting. I'll post a link in the AAR thread.

Looking forward to it! PDT puts on a good program and I always enjoy seeing the pics if I can't make it out.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Looking forward to it! PDT puts on a good program and I always enjoy seeing the pics if I can't make it out.

DesertDoc always does a good job of demonstrating "Broke-back prone" (as seen in the first video) and Pierce195 always has realistic sound effects to demonstrate the correct coures of fire (bang bang, bang bang....) in the last video.

 

[Dragon]

Dragon...you defeinitely need to make the next class...well worth the investment of time and $$!

I definitely will, Carbine I was a lot of fun so I can't wait for II.

 

[cedartop]

For the guys who commented about it. Could you explain to me why a Two point sling is harder to use during a transfer? I almost always prefer a two point and find it to work quite well for shoulder transfers.

 

[Vlad the Impaler]

For the guys who commented about it. Could you explain to me why a Two point sling is harder to use during a transfer? I almost always prefer a two point and find it to work quite well for shoulder transfers.

Maybe I can learn something from you then!

I wear a Blue Force VCAS two point, snug (all in), right handed muzzle down, QD attached to the back of the handguard and the base of the buttstock. It is possible to move the buttstock directly over to my left shoulder pulling the adjustment out and dropping my left arm through, but it's snug enough to make it difficult and I have trouble getting the needed slack quickly. I'm sure it's lack of practice.
It seems just as easy to throw the sling over my head, right to left.

I do not own a single point, so I can't say I'd be much quicker with one. It's an assumption that bringing it to either shoulder would be equally fast.