Out(In?)posts of the urban wastes

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  • Kuting

    Plinker
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    Apr 26, 2010
    96
    6
    MSG2 - Frankfort
    Since I'm the original author I figured I'd post this here and see what you guys think. This is a thread from another forum, and I've been pondering these ideas and more for a long time. I have almost completely stopped posting on other sites and forums, because I get tired of seeing the same armchair survivalist crap. I know, I know... I'm not living in a nuke shelter under an island no one knows about, but it gets so annoying listening to idiots who think their entire life will fit into an ALICE pack and they can run off into the woods and never be seen again. This is Indiana, and you guys can look at the woods around here and understand how much of a joke that mindset is. So here it is. I hope you enjoy.

    For quite some time I have been pondering the urban zones during and after a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation. During the initial days of any disaster people want to flee from the city, and rightly so in some situations. If there are wildfires encroaching upon the borders of your town or a hurricane rolling toward your shore it's time to lock up and hit the road, but what do we do when everyone else is heading to the woods? When you're trying to get away from people it doesn't always mean getting away from the city, because when everyone goes to the closest state/national park or chunk of woods then you're all going to be in the same boat, just with nothing but what people brought with them.

    Once abandoned the cities will provide much that people need. Food, shelter, and supplies. Many preppers have a vision of stores being instantly looted and everything useful being stripped from anywhere with more than one stop light but this is simply not true. People will not, in their panicked state, take everything that is not nailed down. However, you'll never find a big screen TV or booze, but these are items that you don't need to make it. Look around at your town (Or the one you're next in) and think about the things you could do with the supplies you could find a use for in building a suitable home or outpost in town.

    1. Walls

    I have been thinking about walls for quite some time. Walls will be needed whether you're in a city or in the rolling plains. If your "village" becomes even semi-permanent you're going to have the smell of cooking food, lights at night, and movement that will draw attention. The primary defense throughout history has always been walls. There is a great amount of wall building material throughout any city that could be turned into great impassible structures. If you look at most cars or trucks, imagine crushing down the roof and taking the wheels off... You've now got a 1500 to 2500 pound brick. Start to Lego some of those together and you're not getting in unless you walk through the gate. Concrete lane dividers would also make a great addition. For smaller or lighter barriers fencing could be used. If you took all the chain link fence from a couple neighborhoods you could patch together quite a nice fence that would keep people out. For fencing think inner perimeter.

    2. Gardens and small farms

    Every patch of grass will no longer have a use keeping neighborhoods scenic and beautiful, so why not use that area? Rip us that sod and plant a garden. If everyone with a yard farmed the entire thing they'd be able to feed a lot more than just themselves. For those areas too far out to protect let them grow, then go bale it. Livestock needs straw, and it will be abundant. Also, cities are an amazing source of glass, and glass means greenhouses. Greenhouses will enable a longer growing season and non-indigenous crops. Almost all produce you pick up at the grocery store can be grown in a greenhouse.

    3. Security

    Cities provide an amazing amount of security, and they will continue to do so in the future. Nature takes it's course in domesticated animals and ensures their survival. Packs of large (Because smaller ones end up as food for the others) feral dogs WILL kill people. This may be hazardous to patrols outside the wall, but to intruders it will also be an extreme deterrent. The dark windows facing a street have and will always create a paranoia that someone may be watching, and an attack can come from any one of those windows. The psychological effect of the imminent guerrilla attack within an urban environment will also serve to ward off those who would otherwise attempt to gain access to your compound. And last but not least... The killing fields. An urban setting means corners, doors, elevated shooting positions, road blocks... You can make your own personal maze of death, and as long and you and your group know what is where you'll be fine, not so much for those who don't.

    4. Information

    The local library, hardware stores, local surveyors offices, schools, city buildings, and even a gas station will contain books, maps, blueprints, and other information that may be crucial to building a working, safe society. All these materials will aid you in your goal of survival, and will allow you to take it to the level you deem necessary. With Do-It-Yourself books, Chemistry texts, medical banks, and blueprints of citywide structures and utilities you'll be able to bring you and yours back out of the dark ages.

    5. Energy

    Once the power goes out the gas pumps will stop working, that doesn't mean there's no more fuel, and if you know how to get it you'll be driving to your heart's content and running generators to play the old copy of Jet Moto you found in a box. Multitudes of road signs and other small things around the country are run on solar panels. Wire enough solar panels together and you've got power. Abandoned cars will littler the entire world, and each and every car out there (with the exception of electrics) will have an alternator on it. Whip up some blades, a gear set, and hook up an inverter and you've got some wind turbines. Propane facilities will be abandoned and ripe for the picking (if you get there before someone else gets the same idea) and propane and other gases have extensive uses.

    6. Existing infrastructure

    Want to set up a communication center? Head down to the local radio station and secure a perimeter around it. Use some of that know-how and get yourself some power, then you're talkin'... Literally, to anyone who's listening for it. Talk about an early warning... Get a call on the 2-Way or CB and broadcast it over the radio station, then in the middle of Turn the Page someone hears the message to pick up their rifle and get ready. Junk yards will be like opening that perfect gift on Christmas morning. Wells, water towers, electrical lines, gas lines, and the like could all be utilized. Homes and other structures could all be great for housing and whatever else you can think of. Old school buildings and hospitals would be amazing for a large communal setting, seeing as how they have many rooms, thick walls, good construction, and large dining facilities.

    7. Supplies supplies supplies

    While people may be looting stores and stealing cars very few will be going house to house looking for useful items. In one block you'll find a great amount of canned goods, tools, clothing, and other things that may make life easier. You may even come across some firearms which will greatly increase the security of you and your people. If you happen to have a large boiler or similar furnace that burns wood imagine the firewood all around you. Cities are filled to the brim, and no one if going to take everything they own when they leave. Finding those mowing shoes or an old jacket may be the thing that saves your life, you never know.

    8. Other Survivors

    Not everyone will leave, and not everyone who stays will instantly die. If you happen to run across other survivors they may have something you need, and in exchange for the security you will be able to provide they may be eternally grateful. Imagine running across a doctor, electrician, veteran, or a dentist. The skillsets they will be able to employ to aid you will far outweigh the food and shelter you provide for them.

    These are just some of the things that pop into my head when I think about urban survival but, undoubtedly, there are many more. What are your thoughts?
     

    patton487

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 2, 2010
    458
    16
    Sounds ok, If tshtf I would probably make a trip to town to buy up as much supplies as I could before the looting starts. but after that I think I will stay in the country
    One thing you mentioned got me thinking, we have no walls around our place. Security could be an issue. Guess I'll have to cross that bridge when we get there. People would have to go a long way to find us though...:smileak:
     

    Woodsman

    Expert
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    0   0   0
    May 19, 2009
    1,275
    36
    New albany
    If the events surrounding Hurricane Katrina were any prelude to what happen elsewhere you'll see people running off with big screen TV's, radio's and anything else they can't eat. Once they get hungry and realize the guberment is not coming to give them TV dinners with stuffing it will get interesting to say the least.

    If you think the commute across the New Albany and Jeff bridges are bad during rush hour traffic wait until something severe happens. The lanes will be blocked all along I-65 and 64. I would think anything along the highways would be stripped bare as the locusts swarm down the lanes looking for stuff.

    I think E5Ranger has the right idea, but that would not be for the faint of heart with everything else going to h.e. double toothpicks!
     

    Cpt Caveman

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    57   0   1
    Feb 5, 2009
    1,757
    38
    Brown County
    Walls would be the problem. You can't survive a siege. They have the whole world to resupply. You have whats inside your little walled in area. Even if you are well supplied, they will have numerical advantage and time will be on their side.
    I can see the point that not everyone is gonna die outright if they don't get out. BUT I don't wanna be one of the guys trying to keep his family alive and unmolested when there's roving gangs of people wandering about taking what they want by force. The waiting for things to die down is gonna be what gets you killed.
    I think you need to get your head around a new location. The thing that is the S hitting the fan may not be societal collapse. It might be a radiological dispersal device ( dirty bomb), train tanker spill or tornado that may drive you from your home.
    I believe the population centers are gonna be terrible places to be if there is societal breakdown taking place. There will be ample scavenging for a while but I think you are underestimating what desperate people will take when they have nothing.They'll have no problem taking your life for the food in your hand let alone what you have in your pantry.
    The stores will be empty in no time. No police to call, in fact some of them will be leading the raiding parties I'm sure.. I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment..
    Uh yeah the feral dogs as a deterrent , um... you're kidding right. First one of your kids thats attacked there won't be any feral dogs left. You'll make sure they are killed yourself. They can't be a danger just to the folks you see as the bad guys unless when dogs become feral they suddenly develop moral compasses..
    Personal maze of death? You mean bottlenecks right? One of your better points.
    The only problem I see with alot of your assumptions is you are the first person to the radio shack , the gas station, library, hardware stores, local surveyors offices, schools, city buildings. I don't wanna rely on there being anything left, I bet there won't be much if anything left for you to scrounge.
    Good luck to you .
     

    bigiron

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Sep 25, 2009
    567
    16
    NWI hiding in the bushes
    i agree caveman. this is why we prep, correct? so that when the SHTF we don't have to run to the city for supplies and survival. i prep so i have the necessary items to make it to my destination away from the city. the cities will become abandonded once everything is gone, but in the early stages the sheep will not leave the protection of home. after a couple months of harsh survival, most people will be forced form the cities from gangs and lack of resources, but in the mean time cities will become very populated. you boys can go where you want but i'm taking my stuff and heading for the country. there i can survive from my own preparations and not worry about all the folks stealing flat screens and raiding mcdonalds. hell, the cities are already bad enough without a crisis.
     

    ar15_dude

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Mar 12, 2008
    299
    18
    Welcome to INGO and prepping. Keep thinking outside the box, and keep developing your plan. It is good to discuss these things with other preppers. A few responses:

    ... Once abandoned the cities will provide much that people need. Food, shelter, and supplies.
    I think this is your first false assumption, sure many people will attempt to leave the city, but certainly not all. Even a 75% reduction leaves a lot of people to compete for resources and control. There will be a finite amount of goods, and many people after them, some more ruthless than others.

    Many preppers have a vision of stores being instantly looted and everything useful being stripped from anywhere with more than one stop light but this is simply not true. People will not, in their panicked state, take everything that is not nailed down. However, you'll never find a big screen TV or booze, but these are items that you don't need to make it. Look around at your town (Or the one you're next in) and think about the things you could do with the supplies you could find a use for in building a suitable home or outpost in town.
    I basically disagree. The first reaction for the goblins will be to steal everything they can. The direness of the situation may not be known, and greed will drive behavior, until hunger results in ruthless foraging.

    The primary defense throughout history has always been walls. There is a great amount of wall building material throughout any city that could be turned into great impassible structures. If you look at most cars or trucks, imagine crushing down the roof and taking the wheels off... You've now got a 1500 to 2500 pound brick. Start to Lego some of those together and you're not getting in unless you walk through the gate. Concrete lane dividers would also make a great addition.
    Only if you have access to working heavy equipment to move stuff around, all while you avoid getting shot.

    While people may be looting stores and stealing cars very few will be going house to house looking for useful items. In one block you'll find a great amount of canned goods, tools, clothing, and other things that may make life easier. You may even come across some firearms which will greatly increase the security of you and your people.
    I think lots of people will be going house-to-house, and it had better not be you. You are likely to find firearms...in the hands of homeowners defending their families and properties. Quick way to die of gun shot.
     

    sgt.porter

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 20, 2010
    175
    16
    Deleware County
    The only people who will be able to survive in the cities are the looters and gangs, those who are willing to kill anyone or do anything for their own survival. Supplies will be instantly controlled by whichever new warlord started with the most armed friends. One faction eventually takes control of the city by force. You join them or die fighting them.
    Spend a couple years in a 3rd world country and I bet you'll change your mind about city survival. If you are one who plans on surviving the city, well good luck to you.
     

    Libertarian01

    Grandmaster
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    Jan 12, 2009
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    To All,

    I do not believe more than 20 - 30% would want to leave their homes. This is what being asked when you say "city." Forget where their home is and realize that you are presuming people will want to leave their homes. They won't. People will stay and attempt to make the best of it. Look at what happened during Katrina, and I don't just mean New Orleans, but they are a shining example. Even when Mayor Nagin ordered the evacuation, most people stayed.

    By staying they will contribute to the accelerated decline of living standards. Things will become more desperate more quickly.

    Any lone individual or even small group will eventually be assimilated by a larger group. No matter how well defended, trained or armed the simple erosion of assets by attrition over time will take out well prepared survivors in an urban setting.

    With walls and other defenses this will create a shining light telling the entire region "you have something worth protecting" and probably something "they" want.

    While you "may" be able to fend off the first, second, or even third wave of looters, survivors and gangs eventually loss of position will become inevitable.

    If you have significant enough money to overcome all of these possible threats, then that money would be better utilized building up a rural area where friends, neighbors and others can band together in better cohesion to achieve long term survival.

    I apologize if I am too much of a naysayer here, but I've been through this discussion with many people before. It is my opinion that beefing up an "urban bunker" is a general waste of money. I would not condemn the idea of a bunker for the purposes of storage and getting ready to bug out, but planning for long term survival during a major SHTF or TEOTWAWKI in a large city is a waste of money that could be better utilized elsewhere.

    Let us also not forget that you will have to leave your bunker/compound to regularly recon the area. If you don't know what is going on around you then you are blind. If you think you are just going to hunker down and not come out for a month or two then you are being foolish. You will have to gather on site intel to anticipate overwhelming threats from which you must run. A rogue national guard unit w/ a tank or even a Bradly will be enough to easily overwhelm any civilian defenses. If you don't know it is coming it will be too late when it appears at your doorstep. Hence the need for recon.

    Now, if you don't have significant assets to do anything rural then by all means do the best you can in the city. Just try to make friends with some country folk while you're at it.;)

    Regards,

    Doug

    PS - For minor or moderate SHTF, I see an urban bunker/compound as adequate.
     

    Lex Concord

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    Dec 4, 2008
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    Morgan County
    All other comments so far aside, this post is obviously premised upon the uber "OMGWTFSHTFBBQ" that turns the world (or at least a good portion of the state) into the set of Mad Max or The Stand.

    While I don't want to trash your points, as some will have some validity in such situations, I don't think a lot of them will play well in the 3-billion or so lesser SHTF scenarios. I think the most likely to get the state of Indiana to that point (unless, of course, it's something national/global) would be the New Madrid fault wreaking havoc.

    Even a full-blown economic collapse wouldn't likely lead to folks fleeing the cities quickly. That is, after all, where the government soup/cheese lines will be set up first, after all.

    It's good to think big, and I agree with others that there are valuable ideas in your post, but don't forget to drill down into less horrific scenarios, as they are more likely.

    BTW, welcome to INGO!
     

    Lynn Smith

    Plinker
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    Sep 2, 2009
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    MSG 2 / Indianapolis
    My approach to preparation is to begin with the most likely issues and work toward the least likely.

    At this time I see the most likely issue an economic falter or even collapse. In this situation most people will stay where they are, if not move closer to a city for numerous reasons. For one that is where most of the employment will be as well as 90% of all consumable resources. The government and most industry will continue to give support/products to cities and suburbs first because that is where the most consumers/voters will be. While crime will be a big issue it will not be a mad max situation.

    Following that we start with natural disasters, terrorist attacks, armed insurrection, destruction of the world, etc...

    In all situations have a "bug out" and "bug in plan" is extremely important. Know the local area enough to navigate in a motor vehicle, bicycle, and on foot to get out or to areas of safety. Use common sense and don't listen to the hysteria of someone who also happens to sell survival goods. Canned goods and a small generator are worth more than a bug out plan and a ten acre farm if you are out of power for three weeks because of a tornado that wiped out a sub-station a mile away.

    Start with the most likely and work toward the least likely.

    I am not saying to not plan for the mad max scenario, I'm just saying that it is less likely than other situations that require a different set of preparations that need to be done as well, if not first.

    Study what has happened in Argentina, then Venezuela, then Zimbabwe, then Haiti, the Afghanistan, and so on to see real life examples of some possible situations. The things that we see happening in our world around us right now is more likely then a 2012 asteroid colliding with the earth so that is where I would begin and then work toward the asteroid.
     

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