Opinions on 80% AR lower receivers...

[Meyer]

I searched and didn't find much. Maybe I am looking in the wrong forum?

Any opinions on 80% lowers for the AR? Billet Rifle Systems seems to get good reviews. What about Tactical Machining, those are much better priced than BRS.

Other brands anyone has experience with?

Thanks

 

[Manatee]

If you're a machinist (professional or hobbyist), finishing a lower is a fun project. If you aren't, 100% lowers go for $50 to $100+. Try DOA Arms for good prices on Spike's.

 

[Meyer]

I am an accountant who owns a machine shop on the side. I don't have the skills to machine one from a chunk of AL... my business partner does but he is too busy. I could get a few 80%'ers and do those though, plus trying to teach my kid basic machining.

Thanks for the reference, I'll check out DOA.

 

[gregkl]

If they come through, one day I will receive two lowers on a crowd fund I did. I am not holding my breath but if what they machine turns out good, I will sell them here on INGO.

I got tired of waiting and bought a 100% lower.

 

[PKendall317]

I wouldn't bother with an 80% lower unless you knew or were a good, competent machinist. Also I think you may run into some legal issues with those if my understanding is correct. Don't they have to have a serial number stamped on them at some point?

 

[Meyer]

I can machine them for sure.

I dont think they need a number if I keep them

 

[gregkl]

It's not difficult to do. Remember, you are only doing 20%. Some guys do it with a drill press.

 

[Gunaria]

If you have the tools and the know how, they can be great. If not then they are a waste of money/

 

[Meyer]

I have a CNC mill (and too many other toys ) so I can do it without a problem.

Any other thoughts on brands anyone has tried?

 

[remauto1187]

They don't need a number. Keep in mind that you have to finish the lower. No one can do it for you. And you have to keep it forever, not selling it or giving it to anyone else.

If I end up finishing mine, I will engrave a serial number in it, so if I want to sell it, I can.

It's mot difficult to do. Remember, you are only doing 20%. Some guys do it with a drill press.

Doesnt matter if you put a serial number on it or not. You still CANNOT sell or give to anyone. That would then be considered manufacturing a firearm for sale and you have to have a mabufacturers FFL license to do that. Manufacturers pay the ATF an excise per EACH firearm manufactured for sale. The only way to be able to pay this tax is if you have a manufacturing FFL. Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Manufacturers | ATF

 

[nucular]

The difference is billet vs. forged. I think some of the billets look nice but aren't worth any more money than a forged. IMO, HLF and tactical machining both sell fine 80% lowers.

 

[cce1302]

Doesnt matter if you put a serial number on it or not. You still CANNOT sell or give to anyone. That would then be considered manufacturing a firearm for sale and you have to have a mabufacturers FFL license to do that. Manufacturers pay the ATF an excise per EACH firearm manufactured for sale. The only way to be able to pay this tax is if you have a manufacturing FFL. Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Manufacturers | ATF

If you manufacturer it for personal use, then sell it out of your collection, it would be just as legal as an FFL buying a handgun for personal use, then selling it out of his personal collection.

It would also be the same as an individual assembling firearms for personal use, then selling it out of his personal collection.

From your link:
7. An individual acquires frames or receivers and assembles firearms for his personal use, not for sale or distribution.
The individual is not manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution and is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.

 

[gregkl]

.

 

[remauto1187]

If you manufacturer it for personal use, then sell it out of your collection, it would be just as legal as an FFL buying a handgun for personal use, then selling it out of his personal collection.

It would also be the same as an individual assembling firearms for personal use, then selling it out of his personal collection.

From your link:
7. An individual acquires frames or receivers and assembles firearms for his personal use, not for sale or distribution.
The individual is not manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution and is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.

Incorrect. A 80% receiver is NOT a firearm and not even a receiver(finished). You are taking a 80% receiver (hunk of metal) and completing it in to a "firearm"(AR15 lower receiver completed is the receiver/frame that has to be transferred) which is perfectly legal to do....for yourself but not legal to sell. In your "FFL Dealer" example the handgun ALREADY had its excise tax paid for by the manufacturer and was ALREADY a firearm when purchased by the FFL from the manufacturer/distributor.

Dont believe me....call the ATF so they can tell you what I just told ya.

 

[remauto1187]

If I take my serial numbered lower and have a store fill out the 4473 on it, it is then legal for me to treat it just like any other firearm.

If your "serial numbered lower" started life as a 80% receiver and you completed it then NO you CAN NOT sell or transfer it. The excise tax was never paid on it. You would be Illegally manufacturing (FOR SALE) a firearm. If you bought a lower receiver from (anyone legally) and it was made 100% by a manufacturer and the excise tax was paid for it then yes you can sell it to whomever can legally own it and even do the deal thru a trasfer on a 4473 with a FFL if you chose to.

 

[cce1302]

Incorrect. A 80% receiver is NOT a firearm and not even a receiver(finished). You are taking a 80% receiver (hunk of metal) and completing it in to a "firearm"(AR15 lower receiver completed is the receiver/frame that has to be transferred) which is perfectly legal to do....for yourself but not legal to sell. In your "FFL Dealer" example the handgun ALREADY had its excise tax paid for by the manufacturer and was ALREADY a firearm when purchased by the FFL from the manufacturer/distributor.

Dont believe me....call the ATF so they can tell you what I just told ya.

Or I can read the link you posted, which also states:

Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them), 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms.

And:

Yes. Licensed manufacturers incur excise tax on the sale of firearms and ammunition manufactured. See Item 17, “Federal Excise Tax” in the General Information section of this publication

In plain English, only a licensed manufacturer is required to pay excise tax. One who manufactures a firearm for personal use is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.

Or you can read 18 USC 922 (a) which says:

(a) It shall be unlawful— (1) for any person— (A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce; or

If you can show me USC that states that it is illegal to sell or give away a firearm that was manufactured for personal use, then post it up. Otherwise, we're done here.

18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts | LII / Legal Information Institute

 

[remauto1187]

Or I can read the link you posted, which also states:



And:


In plain English, only a licensed manufacturer is required to pay excise tax. One who manufactures a firearm for personal use is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.

Or you can read 18 USC 922 (a) which says:



If you can show me USC that states that it is illegal to sell or give away a firearm that was manufactured for personal use, then post it up. Otherwise, we're done here.

18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts | LII / Legal Information Institute

"Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them), 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms. "

Read the blue...then reread again.

When you complete a 80% receiver YOU ARE MANUFACTURING A FIREARM. Which part of that do you NOT understand? When you sell a completed firearm/receiver that you manufactured/machined/milled/pulled out of your rear end, you are selling a firearm that was MANUFACTURED WITHOUT a Manufacturer FFL.

Like I said....dont believe me...call the atf and ask up for yourself. This subject has been dealt with many many years ago.

Edit: Here ya go found it for you. One quick GOOGLE search among the atf website. Guess they are lying to you also?
"For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.
The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), defines the term “firearm” to include the following:

… (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm."
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly
​

 

[cce1302]

"Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them), 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms. "

Read the blue...then reread again.

I read it. I also read the part that says "AND" which would mean that all three items must be included to require a license (intent is one of the requirements).

When you complete a 80% receiver YOU ARE MANUFACTURING A FIREARM. Which part of that do you NOT understand? When you sell a completed firearm/receiver that you manufactured/machined/milled/pulled out of your rear end, you are selling a firearm that was MANUFACTURED WITHOUT a Manufacturer FFL.

That's not illegal if it was manufactured for personal use. You just can't manufacture for the purpose of sale or distribution unless you have a license.

Like I said....dont believe me...call the atf and ask up for yourself. This subject has been dealt with many many years ago.

Edit: Here ya go found it for you. One quick GOOGLE search among the atf website. Guess they are lying to you also?
"For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.
The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), defines the term “firearm” to include the following:

… (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm."
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly
​

How are you coming to a different conclusion based on the same facts?

We both agree that it's illegal to manufacture a firearm for sale without a license.

Legal for unlicensed person: manufacture a firearm for personal use.
Illegal for unlicensed person: manufacture a firearm for sale.
Legal for unlicensed person: sell a personal firearm.

You still haven't posted anything that prohibits the sale of a firearm originally manufactured for personal use.

 

[Meyer]

For the record, I bought a colt a couple years ago. I plan to buy a couple of 80% lowers just to teach my kid to use my CNC mill (2 axis prototrak controlled). I will throw them in the safe and build them eventually. I only buy guns, don't sell any. I plan to pass them on to my kids.

Having said all of that....

A friend called the ATF about a year ago on this subject and they said if you make for personal use and happen to sell one once in awhile it is ok - basically what cc3 is saying above.

To me it isn't worth the risk given that it seems to be a grey area. If I built one and was in the bread line, I would just buy a registered stripped lower and swap it out and sell the thing complete. Then I would have a nice paperweight left over.

I am a CPA during the day and tinker at night with old Fords (have a model T) and machining to stay sane. I just like to plink with guns with my kids.

I will post up after I get one and machine it.

Thanks all for the replies.

 

[30calmachinegunner]

Boy there sure are a lot of experts here, strange they seem to disagree on so much, makes me think that maybe some of these experts should listen a little more then spout off.

you can build as many guns as you want for personnel use, no manufacturers license is needed. No excise tax is due, in fact the BATFE has it so that if you are a ffl( gunsmith) you can build up to 50 guns per year without having to deal with excise taxes.
if at some future date you tire of your creation you can sell it, you need to have your name, city state and a unique number( serial number) engraved on it, no excise tax is due. Where the BATFE frowns is if you do this on a regular basis(aka manufacturing)

i have a $20 bill if any can " prove " me wrong, and I don't mean just spouting off as above.