No knock warrants - do they scare you?

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[88E30M50]

Who is in jeopardy of a no-knock raid anyways? I would say high priority criminals right? So what's there to be worried about?

The point of this thread is not who the target is, but who actually gets served with the no-knock warrant. Also, wasn't there a thread a couple of months back where someone was issued a no-knock warrant because an employee that had been stealing from him feared reprisal? The person that was the target of the warrant had done nothing wrong other than being hiring a worthless POS. IIRC, that one did not go down due to his having friends on the PD, but it shows that no-knocks are not saved for the Dillingers of the world.

No knock warrants should be illegal and puts both homeowners and police at risk. If allowed, the person issuing the warrant as well as the person providing the information on the warrant should be held accountable for the results. If an innocent person dies because of an incorrect warrant, those issueing parties should be charged with murder, just the same as if a criminal is charged with any deaths caused by his crime, whether or not he had a direct hand in the death. I'm guessing that the number of no-knock warrants would drop to near zero if the folks issuing them were held responsible for the outcome in criminal court if they screwed up.

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[downzero]

I don't foresee the No-Knock going anyplace, anytime soon. Hudson v. Michigan was the 2006 opinion for the Supreme Court, that Justice Scalia in a 5-4 majority, found that the benefits of LE, outweighed the liabilities of the No-Knock Warrant.

My reading of that case suggests that it an opinion about the suppression remedy specifically, not the "knock and announce" rule, which the state of Michigan apparently conceded was violated.

In other words, this is just another case where the Fourth Amendment was violated but the defendant was denied the suppression remedy. It was not, as you seem to be suggesting, a case in which the Court held that a no-knock warrant complied with the Fourth Amendment's demands.

The exclusionary rule analysis is a separate issue from the Fourth Amendment's constitutional demands.

 

[HD1911]

The point of this thread is not who the target is, but who actually gets served with the no-knock warrant. Also, wasn't there a thread a couple of months back where someone was issued a no-knock warrant because an employee that had been stealing from him feared reprisal? The person that was the target of the warrant had done nothing wrong other than being hiring a worthless POS. IIRC, that one did not go down due to his having friends on the PD, but it shows that no-knocks are not saved for the Dillingers of the world.

No knock warrants should be illegal and puts both homeowners and police at risk. If allowed, the person issuing the warrant as well as the person providing the information on the warrant should be held accountable for the results. If an innocent person dies because of an incorrect warrant, those issueing parties should be charged with murder, just the same as if a criminal is charged with any deaths caused by his crime, whether or not he had a direct hand in the death. I'm guessing that the number of no-knock warrants would drop to near zero if the folks issuing them were held responsible for the outcome in criminal court if they screwed up.

I will agree to your post, completely. It is absolutely uncalled for, for the Police to be showing up at the wrong address or serving a Raid on the wrong persons.

They should be held to the highest standards and face Justice if things go awry as a result of bad intel and planning and such.

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[justincue]

I would be dead too..

 

[irishfan]

I believe it was about 20 years ago now but an officer was killed in my town on a no knock type warrant. Also, he did not yell "police" when he came in and was shot by the guy who lived in the house.

I understand the point of a no-knock warrant but they also carry some risk as well if the person inside is armed already.

 

[IndySSD]

I believe it was about 20 years ago now but an officer was killed in my town on a no knock type warrant. Also, he did not yell "police" when he came in and was shot by the guy who lived in the house.

I understand the point of a no-knock warrant but they also carry some risk as well if the person inside is armed already.

First of all.... Go Irish!

Secondly, I have a few questions for you simply for my own curiosity.

1. Where did this take place.
2. Was the homeowner the actual intended target of the "No Knock?"
3. Did the homeowner live through the initial ordeal?
4. If he did live, what action was taken against him I wonder.


Also, I spoke with one of my LEO family members about this potential situation and he came to about the same conclusion about situations like this as I did. (although he is much less likely to be the subject of an accidental mis-noknock because of his duty vehicle in the driveway)

Both of our conclusions were basically that we're screwed. Basically both of us are equipped and setup to defend ourselves and our families in similar fashion (Multiple pistols, Shotguns and preloaded large capacity drums for assault rifles) and we're both of the same mindset of "if an intruder forces their way into our home, we're shooting until we can't shoot anymore. (and I always have a minimum of 3 full capacity mag reloads available for all 3 of my bedroom firearms not to mention if I can get to other parts of the house where my assault weapons are).

We talked about this issue through multiple scenarios and no matter how we talked about it, from his LEO perspective, its a lose lose situation for the armed homeowner because 9 times out of ten you're going to wind up dead if you have "shots fired" on a LEO. Even if you somehow live, in the eyes of LE agencies/officers you have committed murder on LEO(s) and your life as you know it is over whether you're dead, in prison or a target for severe retaliation.

 

[mrjarrell]

Here's yet another reason no-knock and middle of the night raids are a bad idea. Bad guys use the same tactics, even disguising themselves as cops.

via Y100 Miami

Cops are on the hunt for two men posing as FBI agents trying to break into a home in Cooper City.Surveillance video shows the men, wearing masks, T-shirts with the letters FBI on the back, and badges around the neck tried to use a crowbar to break into the home through the front door and window.
The homeowner's wife called 911 while he grabbed his .40 caliber pistol and fired it through a window at the men.
The men jumped into a light colored or silver Mercedes SUV driven by a third suspect and fled.
Anyone with information is asked to call Broward Crime Stoppers at 954-493-TIPS.

Surveillance photo at the source.

 

[HD1911]

Both of our conclusions were basically that we're screwed. Basically both of us are equipped and setup to defend ourselves and our families in similar fashion (Multiple pistols, Shotguns and preloaded large capacity drums for assault rifles) and we're both of the same mindset of "if an intruder forces their way into our home, we're shooting until we can't shoot anymore. (and I always have a minimum of 3 full capacity mag reloads available for all 3 of my bedroom firearms not to mention if I can get to other parts of the house where my assault weapons are).

We talked about this issue through multiple scenarios and no matter how we talked about it, from his LEO perspective, its a lose lose situation for the armed homeowner because 9 times out of ten you're going to wind up dead if you have "shots fired" on a LEO. Even if you somehow live, in the eyes of LE agencies/officers you have committed murder on LEO(s) and your life as you know it is over whether you're dead, in prison or a target for severe retaliation.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Someone forces entry into your dwelling, you shoot them or you shoot at them (doing what any red-blooded American would and should do), but it turns out to be LE or a govt agency...it will not end well.

 

[finity]

No, I didn't compare such, as the is phrase no longer exclusive to military use. The phraseology is utilized in number of fields and disciplines, to include business and social services.

If having to enlighten others to the use or otherwise clarify the proper definition of a word or phrase is "spin", then I'm guilty as charged.

Yes, guilty as charged.

Those "businesses & social services" aren't talking about killing innocent people in furtherance of their objectives. They're using a "cool" phrase to highlight a different degree/type of damage.

When you, as a cop, talk about "collateral damage" you are speaking in the military sense of killing innocent people. If you were just talking about the wrong door being kicked in followed by a "my bad, sorry" people wouldn't be so upset.

So yeah, you can spin it all you want but your thinking is dangerous to a free citizenry.

It wouldn't be so scary if you were just an aberration. Unfortunately, you're not. Your thinking goes all the way through the "justice" system.

No knock warrants should be illegal and puts both homeowners and police at risk. If allowed, the person issuing the warrant as well as the person providing the information on the warrant should be held accountable for the results. If an innocent person dies because of an incorrect warrant, those issueing parties should be charged with murder, just the same as if a criminal is charged with any deaths caused by his crime, whether or not he had a direct hand in the death. I'm guessing that the number of no-knock warrants would drop to near zero if the folks issuing them were held responsible for the outcome in criminal court if they screwed up.

100% agreed.

Who is in jeopardy of a no-knock raid anyways? I would say high priority criminals right? So what's there to be worried about?

You need to read the rest of the thread. I think you missed some posts that contain many examples.

Even an announced warrant poses a risk to those executing same, I don't agree that a No-Knock is any more dangerous,

You're probably right...at least where the police are concerned. When you take into consideration the "collateral damage" you seem to be ok with then not so much.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Officer safety is paramount; even over the possible killing of another 7 YO Detroit girl in the process.

While I disagree with 88 in his view of such be illegal,...

While he thought that no-knocks should be illegal, he also said, if they continue to be used (as you advocate they should be) anyone involved in instigating the raid or in a supervisory/oversight role should be held accountable for the loss of innocent lives on a botched raid. You don't have a problem holding people accountable for their own incompetence do you? Especially if it results in a loss of innocent life?

If a non-LEO kills someone through incompetence even without actually meaning to (IOW, no criminal intent), they would still be held criminally liable & go to prison. Cops should be no different, unless you think that cops should be held to a different (as in lower) standard than the rest of us lowly civilians.

 

[The Meach]

SO here is a question.

What if the Police mess up and "no-knock" my house on mistake (I say mistake because i have no reason to have a legit warrant on me).

Since i know i have no warrants out for me I assume ,reasonably, that these are just unknown armed men entering my house in the dark.

I take lethal action and win. 2-3 cops down. The rest retreat back outside the house. At this point i realize that they are cops.

What the hell do i do now????
Do i call 911? Do i throw my gun out the door and hope they dont shoot me when i come out?

In other words how do i de-escalate the situation and keep the 50-100 now REALLY pissed police outside from Swiss cheesing my house (wounded knee anyone?)? and then what happens to me after?

 

[mrjarrell]

SO here is a question.

What if the Police mess up and "no-knock" my house on mistake (I say mistake because i have no reason to have a legit warrant on me).

Since i know i have no warrants out for me I assume ,reasonably, that these are just unknown armed men entering my house in the dark.

I take lethal action and win. 2-3 cops down. The rest retreat back outside the house. At this point i realize that they are cops.

What the hell do i do now????
Do i call 911? Do i throw my gun out the door and hope they dont shoot me when i come out?

In other words how do i de-escalate the situation and keep the 50-100 now REALLY pissed police outside from Swiss cheesing my house (wounded knee anyone?)? and then what happens to me after?

The likelihood is that you'll die, even if the gun goes out the door. If you're lucky and you do manage to make it out alive you're going to prison for the rest of your life, even tho it was a clear cut case of self defence. That's just how these things shake out, it rarely goes your way (in fact I can think of only one case, ever, where the defendant got off and that was in Detroit, not too long ago). Corey Maye is in prison for it and so is Ryan Frederick in Virginia. Both because of no knocks.

 

[Colt556]

SO here is a question.

What if the Police mess up and "no-knock" my house on mistake (I say mistake because i have no reason to have a legit warrant on me).

Since i know i have no warrants out for me I assume ,reasonably, that these are just unknown armed men entering my house in the dark.

I take lethal action and win. 2-3 cops down. The rest retreat back outside the house. At this point i realize that they are cops.

What the hell do i do now????
Do i call 911? Do i throw my gun out the door and hope they dont shoot me when i come out?

In other words how do i de-escalate the situation and keep the 50-100 now REALLY pissed police outside from Swiss cheesing my house (wounded knee anyone?)? and then what happens to me after?

Call all the media outlets in your area and tell them what happened. Make sure one of them stays on the line, maybe a radio station. The cops will be acting like sharks with the smell of blood in the water. At the very least you'll be beaten and tased. It would be nice to have a recording of what is about to happen. Get your video camera and start recording and place it on a table or someplace where it will continue to record while you are being beaten, shot, killed, etc.

 

[96firephoenix]

If you identify your target before you point a gun at it (like you always should) would you still point a gun at an LEO once you identified them as such?

well when someone busts through your door in black head to toe with an assault rifle pointed at you, thats all the target identification you need

 

[GIJEW]

If you identify your target before you point a gun at it (like you always should) would you still point a gun at an LEO once you identified them as such?

How would police doing "dynamic entry" respond to a homeowner with a flash light and handgun who's trying to identify them as "friend" or foe?

 

[PatriotPride]

How would police doing "dynamic entry" respond to a homeowner with a flash light and handgun who's trying to identify them as "friend" or foe?

With bullets. Swiftly.

 

[E5RANGER375]

SO here is a question.

What if the Police mess up and "no-knock" my house on mistake (I say mistake because i have no reason to have a legit warrant on me).

Since i know i have no warrants out for me I assume ,reasonably, that these are just unknown armed men entering my house in the dark.

I take lethal action and win. 2-3 cops down. The rest retreat back outside the house. At this point i realize that they are cops.

What the hell do i do now????
Do i call 911? Do i throw my gun out the door and hope they dont shoot me when i come out?

In other words how do i de-escalate the situation and keep the 50-100 now REALLY pissed police outside from Swiss cheesing my house (wounded knee anyone?)? and then what happens to me after?

call all the news groups. wait till they arrive, then strip naked and walk outside in the buff. i think its the only way the cops wont shoot you.

 

[PatriotPride]

call all the news groups. wait till they arrive, then strip naked and walk outside in the buff. i think its the only way the cops wont shoot you.

I don't know...seems like a sure way to make them open fire on you...that is, if they're not blinded