My Personal view on Libertarianism (Long Post)

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Libertarian01

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 12, 2009
    6,019
    113
    Fort Wayne
    My views on Libertarianism,


    I thought it would be good to share some of my thoughts on where I see the trend of my party. Where do we agree and disagree with the two old parties and why I became a Libertarian in the first place.

    I’ll start by saying that on some issues I disagree with my own party. Who doesn’t?

    I became a Libertarian from the Republican Party. My father was a small business owner who taught me that the government should be small and stay out of peoples way. I believe that. As I grew older and actually started to watch the Republican Party I began to notice that they would say one thing but vote another way. A good friend of mine put it best when he said, “The Republicans are only fiscally conservative when there is a Democrat in the White House.” He said that many years after I left the Republican Party but it is a very good way to phrase what had motivated me.

    Alright then, let’s get started. I see the Libertarian party foremost supporting the Constitution of the United States and individual responsibility. It is these driving ideals that form most our governmental and societal philosophy.

    Regarding the Constitution most Libertarians I know generally believe in the original intent of this great document and not the wide interpretations of more recent courts and legislators. This does not mean an absolute 100% following the letter of the Constitution. After all, this could well mean that an absolute interpretation of Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 5: “to coin Money, to regulate the Value thereof…” would invalidate all paper currency. While I certainly agree that an argument can be made for the removal of paper money I think it is not unreasonable to assume the intention of this provision is for the Congress to control the currency. However, for those wishing to wage war on this issue, go right ahead.

    Regarding individual responsibility I generally take this to mean that American citizens are the first ones responsible for protecting their own rights and determining their own destiny, to the extent possible for them. This means standing up for themselves against any form of tyranny. This means that every American has the right to be self destructive and do tremendously stupid things. This does NOT remove from that individual their need to suffer the just consequences of their irresponsible actions.

    If you want to bungee jump go right ahead. If you want to smoke, puff away. If you want to drive without a seatbelt it is your choice. However, should you become sick or injured or impaired from your actions there is NO obligation upon the rest of society to bail you out of your self imposed loss.

    This does not remove from most Americans the capacity with compassion, decency, leniency, and generosity. I think most of us have the responsibility to help those less fortunate than ourselves, but under a Libertarian society you would choose whom to help by voluntarily donating to specific organizations that can be held accountable by the donor(s). Should that organization fail to perform to your expectations you can take your donated money away and give it to another organization that better serves those you wish to help. This is different from government programs that are under no strain to perform well. They will take your money through taxation without any burden of responsibility because the taxpayer has no choice in the matter. Only with extreme outrage at gross conduct can a governmental program change, and then only slightly.

    Speaking for myself and most Libertarians I know we are fiscally conservative. By this I mean that we want the government to be as small as possible, as efficient as possible, and stay within the framework of the Federal and State Constitutions regarding their responsibilities. While many of the modern additions to government have a noble intent they do not fall within the responsibilities of our government. That is what churches and other nongovernmental organizations exist for.

    Most Libertarians I know are socially liberal. By this I simply mean that we stand for defending all of the liberties and protections guaranteed by our Federal Constitution. The freedom of speech, assembly, right to bear arms, freedom from government intrusion into our property without a warrant and so on and so forth.

    It is under this previous paragraph that I think most misunderstanding lies. By being socially liberal we do not support government programs to bail out people from their stupid mistakes, we simply are willing to let people make stupid mistakes and suffer the just consequences of their decisions, be they for good or ill. This would reverse the drive toward a “nanny state”. Yes, you have the right do damage yourself whether through the abuse of alcohol, drugs, diet, eating trans fats, driving a motorcycle without a helmet, smoking, chewing, etc, etc, etc. It’s just that we wouldn’t create a law to stop you or a program to help you. We would simply allow you to dig your own grave and jump in.

    That said, we would stop you from harming others. Driving down the road drunk would still be illegal because you are putting a thousand pound+ vehicle out there without any good controls, but walking home from the bar drunk would not be illegal because you are only a threat to yourself.

    I see most Libertarians agreeing with the Republican philosophically on fiscal issues. We both want small government and lower taxes at all levels. Where I see us disagreeing with Republicans is in that parties general trend to pass laws telling everyone else how to live their lives. I think people should get their own lives in order and then help whom they wish, not trying to dictate how to live. My biggest Federal example of this is the tragic Terry Schiavo case and the general right to die. It is my sincerest hope that no one reading this is ever placed in the position of choosing between an unbearable quality of life and a self imposed death. However, should any of us find ourselves in that unfortunate position then I would want us to be able to choose for ourselves what level of suffering we will not endure, not some meddling government!

    I see most Libertarians agreeing with Democrats on the civil liberties protections and social justice issues. That said, I must immediately follow up that where I see us disagreeing with Democrats is in the concept that a government program will solve these problems. No government program has ever been as efficient as the Free Market or NGO’s in helping people directly. Far more is accomplished by the private sector, churches, and nonprofits than any government bureaucracy ever could.

    The truth of the matter is that no form of government will ever be perfect. I honestly believe that a Libertarian society would have problems. What society doesn’t? I believe, though, that in a Libertarian society the citizens would understand what their responsibilities’ are and that there would be not big brother to save them from themselves. Many societal problems would be easier to manage. People would not be forced to support projects they disagree with nearly as often as they are today. Would we all wind up paying for things we disagree with? Of course we would, but we would be doing it a lot less than we are today and the damage would be far less than it is today.

    I finish by saying that I certainly disagree with some of my parties positions on the national level, but not the county level. After all, I was on the Platform Committee!:) I agree though with the overarching belief in personal responsibility, individual rights & freedoms, and keeping the government on a very tight leash.


    Now go ahead: Think, Question, Rip Away!


    Sincerely,


    Doug


    PS - Everyone have a Great Week!
     

    airmotive

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 17, 2008
    86
    6
    How do I make that post my signature line?

    Ever so slightly off-topic...
    Below is a photo I took this spring. I titled the photo, "The Libertarian" and entered it in Popular Photography's annual photo contest. Final judging in December....

    IMG_5279.jpg
     
    Last edited:

    Fletch

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 19, 2008
    6,415
    63
    Oklahoma
    As I wrote elsewhere...

    I think that what sets libertarianism apart, philosophically speaking, can be summarized in one simple concept:

    The State is not an agent of sanctification.

    That is, no evil act can be made good by virtue of the fact that the actor acted as an agent of the State, and by extension "society".

    For example, if a person robs another person (absent any initiation of force or fraud on the other's behalf), he has committed an evil act, and it does not matter if he gives the money to the poor afterward. If that same person robs another under color of being an agent of the state, the act of robbery is still evil. The aura of the State does not change it to being a good or even morally neutral act.
     

    Fletch

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 19, 2008
    6,415
    63
    Oklahoma
    How do I make that post my signature line?

    Ever so slightly off-topic...
    Below is a photo I took this spring. I titled the photo, "The Libertarian" and entered it in Popular Photography's annual photo contest. Final judging in December....

    IMG_5279.jpg

    Dude, that rocks so friggin' hard. :rockwoot:
     

    truegrit

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 23, 2009
    193
    16
    Highland,IN
    Fletch it sounds like you are anti government but pro constitution yet the constitution lays out a framework for an elected body of government to manage the wishes of the people they govern. and includes checks and balances to insure that the body of government does not gain too much power as to gain athoritarian rule.
     

    Paco Bedejo

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 23, 2009
    1,672
    38
    Fort Wayne
    Great post Libertarian01. Thank you.

    Fletch it sounds like you are anti government but pro constitution yet the constitution lays out a framework for an elected body of government to manage the wishes of the people they govern. and includes checks and balances to insure that the body of government does not gain too much power as to gain athoritarian rule.

    truegrit...while the Constitution does lay out the framework for our government, it DOES NOT lay out the framework by which said government may take our money & give it to others as charity. HUGE difference...
     

    henktermaat

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Jan 3, 2009
    4,952
    38
    How do I make that post my signature line?

    Ever so slightly off-topic...
    Below is a photo I took this spring. I titled the photo, "The Libertarian" and entered it in Popular Photography's annual photo contest. Final judging in December....

    IMG_5279.jpg

    Ha- love it!

    Very good post...
     

    Fletch

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 19, 2008
    6,415
    63
    Oklahoma
    Fletch it sounds like you are anti government but pro constitution yet the constitution lays out a framework for an elected body of government to manage the wishes of the people they govern. and includes checks and balances to insure that the body of government does not gain too much power as to gain athoritarian rule.

    I would say that I am neither anti-government nor pro-Constitution.

    I am not anti-government; I am very much for those functions of government that protect properly understood individual rights, that is, those rights derived from the foundation of and constructed in compliance with the notion of property rights. I do not believe that it is necessary for the organization we currently recognize as the "State" -- a geographically-designated territorial monopoly on the use of force -- to be the provider of those functions, and see much to support the idea that support of such a monopoly is counter to the very notion of individual rights. But leaving that aside for the moment, if the organization(s) that provide(s) the service of protecting individual-rights-as-property-rights properly limits itself to those actions which can be deemed moral under such a construction, I have little argument with its existence.

    I am also not pro-Constitution. As I have stated elsewhere on these boards, the Constitution is a fine document, perhaps the finest of its type, but it is deeply flawed through no fault of its writers; they did not have the benefit of modern scholarship on the nature of rights or the science of economics that I wager would have changed several passages significantly. They were also unable to foresee the vast perversion of the government they created, which came a century after most of them had already died. It is a simple fact of reality that human beings are not prescient, so it is no slight against them that the document they wrote has holes in it; it's just a product of its time. It makes an interesting document to fall back to in modern legal arguments, but it cannot be relied upon to protect the rights of individuals, as countless court cases have demonstrated (Kelo comes immediately to mind).
     

    truegrit

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 23, 2009
    193
    16
    Highland,IN
    That illustrates the difference between Republicans and Libertarians. Libertarians think if it isn't expressly written it doesn't exist. But, while Republicans also believe in the same smaller government principals we realize that the Constitutional framework also allows the voters to amend laws through their representatives as they see fit.
     

    Fletch

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 19, 2008
    6,415
    63
    Oklahoma
    That illustrates the difference between Republicans and Libertarians. Libertarians think if it isn't expressly written it doesn't exist. But, while Republicans also believe in the same smaller government principals we realize that the Constitutional framework also allows the voters to amend laws through their representatives as they see fit.

    You cannot preserve a rational understanding and protection of rights when laws can create new ones out of thin air. Once you agree that a right has to be "balanced" against the interests of the State, you have already conceded that the right doesn't exist except at the whim of the ruling class.
     

    Fletch

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 19, 2008
    6,415
    63
    Oklahoma
    That illustrates the difference between Republicans and Libertarians. Libertarians think if it isn't expressly written it doesn't exist. But, while Republicans also believe in the same smaller government principals we realize that the Constitutional framework also allows the voters to amend laws through their representatives as they see fit.

    And I fundamentally disagree that Republicans believe in smaller government. They have been mercantilists since Abraham Lincoln, and mercantilism is not a small-government philosophy. As Mises put it, it's just another word for socialism -- specifically, "socialism on the German model".
     

    Lakefield22

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 6, 2008
    131
    16
    And I fundamentally disagree that Republicans believe in smaller government. They have been mercantilists since Abraham Lincoln, and mercantilism is not a small-government philosophy. As Mises put it, it's just another word for socialism -- specifically, "socialism on the German model".

    Oh, thank god I am not the only one here who has read Mises. Hit the nail on the head with the mercantilists.

    To the OP: One thing you fail to address, the libertarian view on war and foreign policey. This is one thing I think many "conservatives" cannot get beyond.
     

    Fletch

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 19, 2008
    6,415
    63
    Oklahoma
    A quote from an anti American writer is supposed to change my mind?

    How is Mises anti-American? The man came to America to escape the Nazis and devoted his life to defending capitalism and economic liberty against the advance of socialism as promulgated by Hitler's Germany. I suppose you could claim that he was anti-American in that capitalism and freedom have long since ceased to be American ideals, thanks in no small part to the Republican and Democratic parties.
     

    Fletch

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 19, 2008
    6,415
    63
    Oklahoma
    are we talking about the same thing I'm refering to Menkecken and his Thoughts on Democracy

    H.L. Mencken was a journalist and professional cynic. Ludwig von Mises was an economist.

    Of course, Mises' work eventually leads to that of Hans-Hermann Hoppe, the author of [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Economics-Politics-Monarchy-Natural/dp/0765808684"]Democracy: The God that Failed[/ame], which might also be part of the discussion, but it's not really accessible until you're familiar with the basics of the Austrian School of Economics.
     

    airmotive

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 17, 2008
    86
    6
    I am also not pro-Constitution. As I have stated elsewhere on these boards, the Constitution is a fine document, perhaps the finest of its type, but it is deeply flawed through no fault of its writers; they did not have the benefit of modern scholarship on the nature of rights or the science of economics that I wager would have changed several passages significantly. They were also unable to foresee the vast perversion of the government they created, which came a century after most of them had already died. It is a simple fact of reality that human beings are not prescient, so it is no slight against them that the document they wrote has holes in it; it's just a product of its time. It makes an interesting document to fall back to in modern legal arguments, but it cannot be relied upon to protect the rights of individuals, as countless court cases have demonstrated (Kelo comes immediately to mind).

    This is the exact reason Thomas Jefferson (you know, that guy who wrote the document in question) proposed tearing up the Constitution every 19 years and allowing every generation to hold their own Constitutional Convention.

    Imagine that. He had a bit more foresight than we give him credit for.
     

    rambone

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Mar 3, 2009
    18,745
    83
    'Merica
    This is the exact reason Thomas Jefferson (you know, that guy who wrote the document in question) proposed tearing up the Constitution every 19 years and allowing every generation to hold their own Constitutional Convention.

    Imagine that. He had a bit more foresight than we give him credit for.

    I shudder to think what kind of document Obama and Nancy Pelosi would produce from a Constitutional Convention.

    I say no Constitutional Convention, ever. Pass an Amendment if its so important.
     
    Top Bottom