MSG Challenge

[USMC_0311]

I have been thinking a lot about a few threads lately.

1) How are the MSG's progressing? It seems some are working out plans while others are just waiting for someone else to take charge I guess. Not real sure about that because my contact in Area 2 has been limited.

2) Civilian training. Should civilians train like a SWAT team? Can they do so with out being viewed as kooks or domestic terrorist? Practicing shooting is training but far from what one would need in most SHTF scenarios

3) Communication. How can MSG’s communicate? Can we secure our communications (legal?)? What are good backup communication plans? Anything like smoke signals, secret code, string and 2 cans, WWII crickets?


So like I said it got me thinking (oh ****). We have relative new facility in Anderson just off I 69 (easy access). It has over 125 acres that can be used for training and the equipment/ammo is furnished. A mock up air strip, wooded, forts and a camping area.

What am I talking about? PAINTBALL
http://www.whiteriverpaintball.com/index.php

I have only played a few time years ago but this place looks awesome. I think paintball could be used as a limited type of force on force training. I all so think we civilians could get some decent training as MSG teams. At the same time we can meet fellow INGO members and have some fun. I am thinking Area1 vs. Area2 taking turns being aggressors. Maybe we could get some MODS or active LEO’s to be referees. Maybe take a collection up for their fees or something. Then we can line them up and put them on the same team, MODS make good fodder.


Anyway what are your thoughts and suggestions?

 

[shooter521]

I think paintball could be used as a limited type of force on force training. I all so think we civilians could get some decent training as MSG teams. At the same time we can meet fellow INGO members and have some fun.

IME, the training value would be much more limited than you think; very few of the skills or techniques used in paintball carry over to real firearms. If you want to use a paintball game as a "team building" exercise or an excuse for an INGO meet-and-greet, fine, but don't confuse it with FoF or real training. This coming from a former PB player from WAY back...

 

[swatdoc]

Agree that traditional paintball falls y short of realistic=life-preserving tactics. Not to say that a group couldn't commit to more realistic FoF training and make use of the facility mentioned. That would be intriguing.

 

[USMC_0311]

IME, the training value would be much more limited than you think; very few of the skills or techniques used in paintball carry over to real firearms. If you want to use a paintball game as a "team building" exercise or an excuse for an INGO meet-and-greet, fine, but don't confuse it with FoF or real training. This coming from a former PB player from WAY back...

Well it wasn't the fireams training I was looking at. We all should do that on a consistent basis anyway. Team building, planning and executing missions was what I was looking at. I wouldn't want to look at it as playing paintball as a game either. Where one team is trying to score more then the other. I have trained with M.I.L.E.S. gear and blanks, if planned and cooridinated this could be very valuable training. No we can't use real guns, thats not the point but Fall Creek Conservation Club is only a mile or 2 away from the paintball course. I am just trying to come up with ways we as civilians can train with out spending 100's of dollars and bringing tons of attention to us.

All so a hidden motivation to get some MODS out on the course.

 

[tyler34]

I think people have a more apocalyptic view of the MSG's then than needed or wanted. my view of the MSG is for the most relevant threats, I.E. natural disasters, tornado and flooding in indiana's case. with that view in mind I think were doing good given the logistical challenges. I'm not saying shtf scenarios aren't out there but the logistics of training for that are kind of tough to get around, plus the stigma of said training in the media.

 

[HICKMAN]

I think it depends some on what type of paintball you play. Woodsball/scenario are a little more realistic than speedball.

 

[shooter521]

Not to say that a group couldn't commit to more realistic FoF training and make use of the facility mentioned.

First, I doubt a paintball facility would allow realistic force-on-force type exercises to be conducted by ordinary Earth people (non-mil/LE) on its premises.

Second, you'd still have to contend with the technical differences associated with the guns (markers) themselves, such as ergonomics, manual of arms, lack of sights, and amount of ammo carried/shot. Even if you don't intend it to be firearms training, you could be unconsciously building in some bad habits. Ask me how I know.

Finally, I agree with tyler34 that two relatively large groups of people having a shootout isn't a realistic enough scenario, even in the worst of times, to warrant training for it. There would be better uses for the MSG's collective time, IMO. But then, I'm not a part of one, so I might well be mistaken.

My

 

[jeremy]

I used paintball as a training tool as a Sgt on active duty. We found it was a more realistic tool than MILES was. If a little thought is put into the design of the scenario's you can train a multitude of skills from movement to command to communications. My crew used it mostly to train in first aid skills. Treating the hits as actual wounds and injuries.

 

[USMC_0311]

Agree that traditional paintball falls y short of realistic=life-preserving tactics. Not to say that a group couldn't commit to more realistic FoF training and make use of the facility mentioned. That would be intriguing.

Exactly what I was thinking. I didn't want to "play" paintball.

 

[4sarge]

jeremy

I used paintball as a training tool as a Sgt on active duty. We found it was a more realistic tool than MILES was. If a little thought is put into the design of the scenario's you can train a multitude of skills from movement to command to communications. My crew used it mostly to train in first aid skills. Treating the hits as actual wounds and injuries.​

__________________​

"The big yellow patch does something to an individual that makes him a better soldier, a better team member, and a better American than he otherwise would have been."​

Exactly what I was thinking. I didn't want to "play" paintball.

_________________

Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.​

Ronald Reagan​

Damn it, you two stop thinking, it destroys the natural flow here

 

[USMC_0311]

First, I doubt a paintball facility would allow realistic force-on-force type exercises to be conducted by ordinary Earth people (non-mil/LE) on its premises.

They don't need to know everything and you would be surprized what money will do. A couple hundred customers makes em think a little differenty.

Second, you'd still have to contend with the technical differences associated with the guns (markers) themselves, such as ergonomics, manual of arms, lack of sights, and amount of ammo carried/shot. Even if you don't intend it to be firearms training, you could be unconsciously building in some bad habits. Ask me how I know.

Like I said your putting way to much thought into this. If we did this once or twice no bad habits would cary over from the paint ball guns. The getting to know and working with like minded people would last longer then any bad habits.

Finally, I agree with tyler34 that two relatively large groups of people having a shootout isn't a realistic enough scenario, even in the worst of times,

My

Thats not what I thinking at all.

I know it just your but you are missing my point. You are over thinking this. I have only paintballed once so I am not a player, I don't want to use paintball tactics or play in any paintball games.
I personally look at the MSG concept differently then most I guess. I know I am "kook" or so I have been told. This country will experience an “apocalyptic event” and the ones that prepare and organize will be in charge. Right now most gangs have a head start on us law abiding citizens with their “organization”. I have friends and family, I could get up a formidable force of 10-15 people with in a day or so. I would much rather coordinate my efforts with the majority and restore order.

 

[shooter521]

I personally look at the MSG concept differently then most I guess. I know I am "kook" or so I have been told. This country will experience an “apocalyptic event” and the ones that prepare and organize will be in charge. Right now most gangs have a head start on us law abiding citizens with their “organization”. I have friends and family, I could get up a formidable force of 10-15 people with in a day or so. I would much rather coordinate my efforts with the majority and restore order.

OK. Based on that, I have nothing more to contribute to this thread. Good luck with your venture.

 

[jeremy]

If you are wanting to use this as a training exercise. Then you will have to divide the group into 3 different groups for this exercise. You will need the students, the opposing force and an OC group.
The students will be the most handicapped group. They can not have more than what would be considered a basic load of ammo and supplies that are readily available to the group.
The opposing force are the ones the students will be using as FoF targets. They should be a small group using tactics, techniques, and procedures that you will likely be seen used against you.
And lastly you need to have the OC's. Your Observer Controllers, your trainer/referees. They are the people who will be controlling the scenario as the play evolves to get the desired effects from the training.

 

[Jay]

Good points all, but if folks can't make arrangements to meet and set up some sort of "outing", the outing is never gonna occur. The rural counties don't seem to have the interested population to proceed. I've made several offers of a meeting place, and private range access, but no takers as yet.

 

[tyler34]

Right now most gangs have a head start on us law abiding citizens with their “organization”.

then screw paintball lets slain some dope on the corner.

 

[USMC_0311]

OK. Based on that, I have nothing more to contribute to this thread. Good luck with your venture.

Really did I scare you off? Not really a venture, just asking for opinions. I understood your point perfectly. Like I said I am not a paintballer so I do not have that "paintball game" mentality. I don't know much about it so your experience would seem valuable and worth contribution. I was really more interested in organization, planning, and working as a team. After hearing of the resources available at this course I became intrigued with its practical application. Under a controlled environment several relevant scenarios could be discussed and practiced. Really what’s your definition of apocalyptic? For me it includes the loss of order, no police (or the wrong kind of police), a failure of government. Many different things could set something off from natural disaster to a terrorist attack, from depression/poverty to an assassination, just to name a few. To think we are immune to these things is how complacency fosters. 911 will not be the last attack, Katrina will not be the last disaster or break down of government.

 

[tyler34]

well I do agree that there will be attacks like you talk about but I think they will be gradual, not sudden. it's all about desensitizing the masses.

 

[HICKMAN]

Makes you wonder how close the TV show "Jericho" is with all the little towns defending themselves

 

[tyler34]

Makes you wonder how close the TV show "Jericho" is with all the little towns defending themselves

I'm addicted to that show

 

[USMC_0311]

well I do agree that there will be attacks like you talk about but I think they will be gradual, not sudden. it's all about desensitizing the masses.

I think I get your point about desensitising the masses if we are referring to the government. But what's so gradual about a earthquake or a bomb. Did the planes on 911 gradually strike their targets? When/if it comes it will be suddenly. Now the government may have a plan to gradually take or guns away I will give you that.