Mouse Guns in .22lr?

[GoDawgs]

So I don't have a .22lr gun of any sort, nor do I have a gun that is small enough that I can always carry it as a last resort. I like the idea of my firearms serving multiple roles so I have been looking at the .22lr mouseguns like the Beretta 21a, Bersa Firestorm and Taurus Model 22B. I like the idea that they are cheap to purchase, cheap to shoot, and smaller than a snub j-frame or small .380 semi-auto.

My question to all of you is: do you own and have any pro/con thoughts about these? Outside of 'better than nothing' how do you feel about the .22lr for self defense? Can I use them as a plinker at the range like the more traditional Walther p22 or SIG mosquito? Are they more 'cute' and not truly suited for any purpose? If you don't like micro-22's, what could you suggest that is very small, but very range worthy?

thanks for your thoughts

 

[dieselman]

in my opinion a .22 is better than nothing, but functions more as a signal device. you do not fire your .22 with the intention of neutralizing the threat, you simply hope someone with a real gun hears the shot and comes to help.

just kidding... not a terrible idea imo.

 

[JohnP82]

yes a .22 is better than nothing, but with so many better choices these days of smaller handguns with much more stopping power I personally would go a different route for carry. Another big reason for me is the reliability factor of rimfire ammo compared to centerfire ammo when it comes to self defense. Just my

But do not get me wrong, everybody should have a .22lr for a range toy! Cheap to feed all day and fun to shoot

As far as your last question goes, it is kind of a catch 22 if you will Generally the smaller you go with a handgun the more the felt recoil will be. So if you are looking for a micro gun for deep concealment in a decent caliber then it probably wont be the most fun range gun

 

[451_Detonics]

I have really mixed feelings on a 22 as a defense gun. On one hand anyone hit 4 or 5 times in the torso with a 22 is probably going to reconsider continuing their aggression towards you. However if the attacker is determined, under the influence, or really charged up with adrenalin it might not keep them from carrying through with their attack. They may die at a later time but that does not help you.

At one time a small 22 was the most easily concealed gun you could own. The Walther TPH was tiny, reliable, and accurate. Today however you can get a much larger caliber in about the same size. The small 32's are just as easy to conceal and the 380's are not much larger.

My nephew and his new wife both carry the Kel-Tec P3ATs and both are eagerly waiting for the Twisted Industries 22 conversion to become available. I have a PF-9 which is larger but I really like the 22 conversion for it.

In short I would not recommend the 22 for SD but it can be both a fun gun to shoot as well as a valuable training asset.

 

[crispy]

For starters, the Bersa Firestorm .22lr is the same size as their .380. So getting that one for "size" doesn't make sense. You could get a .380 in the same package.

Those other mouse guns in .22 don't make sense either. You can get the Beretta in .32 or you could just get the Kel Tec P-32. It weighs next to nothing (10oz).

Sure..., the .22lr ammo is cheap, but for a self-defense gun, you don't care about the cost of ammo.

There is very little that is small but range worthy. You touched on the .22lr's in that category. I would consider the Bersa Thunder .380 small and fun to shoot.

I'll tell you what is smaller and fun to shoot and would pack a wallop. The Kel Tec PMR-30.

 

[dice dealer]

The Beretta 21 is by far the better of the .22's you have listed ,
other you may consider is the NAA's , the NAA Black widow is a VERY good lil 22 .

 

[geronimojoe85]

If I absolutely HAD to carry a .22
It would have to be a walther P22.
Accurate, good range toy, and about as small as you can get without running into significant reliability issues.
P22 is actually a pretty good size for a carry gun. In the right holster would disappear.

Allthough 451detonics is on to something with that PF-9 and conversion, if it's reliable enough that'd be about right.

 

[paperboy]

I had a Phoenix HP22 for some time and even carried it. Mine was 100% reliable and accurate. I only got rid of it to purchase something else, I will get another because I liked it so much. My EDC though is an LCP, 7 rnds. of 102 grain Remington Golden Sabres and I'm good to go!

 

[gunman41mag]

If your a man, then I say it's ok to carry a 22 LR, cause you should be strong enough to fight back after you empty the mag & the bad guy is still coming at you. I have a BERETTA 950 JETFIRE 25 acp & I have GLASER SAFETY SLUGS for it

 

[orange]

Ohyeah, the mighty 25ACP.
What advantages does it offer over 22LR? It's not as common, doesn't offer the variety of bullet types and loadings, much more expensive. All of which translates into less practice, for someone on a budget. Sheer power is also lacking. Those Glasers offer something like 100ft/lbs out of a short barrel, and multiple 22LR offerings exceed that..

So what are the advantages? Could reload, but still couldn't push the energy far past recommended specs for fear of blowing up the gun. Rimless case, which means high magazine capacity... but nobody I know of makes a large-capacity 25.
That might actually make an interesting carry piece. With a double-stack or quad magazine someone could make a 25 or 32 with capacity around 30rds in size smaller than those mini-glocks. And while I'm dreaming I'd like it to be select-fire, 5rd bursts sound about right.

Anyway, back on topic. I have a Phoenix Arms HP-22. Single-action auto, 10rd magazine, 22LR. Bought this on a whim and it surprised me - it's a range toy but I would carry this as a backup gun, or in extremes, primary. It's been nicely accurate and perfectly reliable for me.

 

[gunman41mag]

Ohyeah, the mighty 25ACP.
What advantages does it offer over 22LR? It's not as common, doesn't offer the variety of bullet types and loadings, much more expensive. All of which translates into less practice, for someone on a budget. Sheer power is also lacking. Those Glasers offer something like 100ft/lbs out of a short barrel, and multiple 22LR offerings exceed that..

So what are the advantages? Could reload, but still couldn't push the energy far past recommended specs for fear of blowing up the gun. Rimless case, which means high magazine capacity... but nobody I know of makes a large-capacity 25.
That might actually make an interesting carry piece. With a double-stack or quad magazine someone could make a 25 or 32 with capacity around 30rds in size smaller than those mini-glocks. And while I'm dreaming I'd like it to be select-fire, 5rd bursts sound about right.

Anyway, back on topic. I have a Phoenix Arms HP-22. Single-action auto, 10rd magazine, 22LR. Bought this on a whim and it surprised me - it's a range toy but I would carry this as a backup gun, or in extremes, primary. It's been nicely accurate and perfectly reliable for me.

I've had 22 LR ammo that have been dude plenty of times, but every time I pull the trigger on my 25 acp center fire ammo it always shoot with N O dude

 

[orange]

You've had plenty of dudes? Well, thanks for sharing, but back to talking about ammo, the only time I've had reliability issues with 22LR is when buying those Remington Golden Bullet packs. Quality control on those must've been crap. Sometimes duds, sometimes too weak to cycle the action, sometimes could feel the different powder loads in the recoil and report. I stopped buying that brand, problem solved.

 

[woodsie57]

Ditto what "orange" said- stay away from the Rem.Golden bulk pacs- How they ever get anyone to buy their second box is beyond me. I have a Phoenix and a Jennings[dare I admit it},both of which are reliable with decent ammo. Actually use the Jennings more,as its smaller and much lighter of the 2. That said, if you want 100% reliability in a .22, go revolver. Even my Ruger auto has the occasional hiccup.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I've had 22 LR ammo that have been dude plenty of times, but every time I pull the trigger on my 25 acp center fire ammo it always shoot with N O dude

I hate dudes, always coming around and junking up my ranch...

Re the OP:

I do not feel comfortable carrying a .22lr handgun for self defense. I advise taking another look at the micro .380s and 9mm's. The Keltec and ruger .380's are really small.

I'm not knocking the .22lr. It's probably my favorite cartridge and I shoot quite a bit of it. I have a .22lr pistol and plan on buying more because they are cheap and awesome. I just do not feel comfortable carrying it as a defense pistol.

 

[gunman41mag]

You've had plenty of dudes? Well, thanks for sharing, but back to talking about ammo, the only time I've had reliability issues with 22LR is when buying those Remington Golden Bullet packs. Quality control on those must've been crap. Sometimes duds, sometimes too weak to cycle the action, sometimes could feel the different powder loads in the recoil and report. I stopped buying that brand, problem solved.

I've had the firing pin hit the rim of 22 LR ammo & not go off in many 22 rifle & handgun. but how many times have you had a center fire ammo fail to fire

 

[orange]

I've had the firing pin hit the rim of 22 LR ammo & not go off in many 22 rifle & handgun. but how many times have you had a center fire ammo fail to fire

Many times. See, once I made a project of collecting as many different kinds of 9mm as I could find, and feeding it through my favorite Sig to check its function. Reloads, military surplus, hot hollowpoints, commercial ball, chunks of lead, different bullet types, some brands I've never heard of before or since, some so ancient it looked like Great War vintage. Mixed this with a handful of spent casings and shot it all over several months.

Some of it failed to fire, usually the truly antique stuff.
Does this mean 9mm is unreliable? No, it means I was using crappy ammo that behaved as crappy ammo is expected to behave.

 

[gunman41mag]

Many times. See, once I made a project of collecting as many different kinds of 9mm as I could find, and feeding it through my favorite Sig to check its function. Reloads, military surplus, hot hollowpoints, commercial ball, chunks of lead, different bullet types, some brands I've never heard of before or since, some so ancient it looked like Great War vintage. Mixed this with a handful of spent casings and shot it all over several months.

Some of it failed to fire, usually the truly antique stuff.
Does this mean 9mm is unreliable? No, it means I was using crappy ammo that behaved as crappy ammo is expected to behave.

REMEMBER some 9MM rounds have "HARD" primers, cause those 9MM have to be shot in a carbine or sub machine gun

 

[rcflyer]

Here's my two cents. Most people on this site won't like it.

Most of the self defense comments I see on this site dont recommend .22 caliber handguns as "adequate" in "stopping power".
Chances are extremely remote that you will ever have to use your weapon the rest of your life.
Do you really need 17rds(plus 3 or more magazines) to defend yourself if you do have to draw your weapon? Are you living in a combat zone?
Chances are if you do have to draw your weapon, things will happen very quickly and only last a matter of seconds.
A good .22 handgun, that you can practice will inexpensively and often is more than adequate for self defense.
2 to 3 well placed 22's are more effective than one larger caliber bullet that may not go where you want it to.
Big caliber guns are cumbersome to carry. The larger the caliber the more recoil and in a tense situation probably for most people less accurate.
If carrying a big gun makes you feel better, do it. To each his own.
The only 22's I would consider are the Beretta Bobcat pistol or a S&W Revolver for a everyday carry firearm.
No disrespect to anyone intended, just my opinion.

 

[GoDawgs]

Here's my two cents. Most people on this site won't like it.

Most of the self defense comments I see on this site dont recommend .22 caliber handguns as "adequate" in "stopping power".
Chances are extremely remote that you will ever have to use your weapon the rest of your life.
Do you really need 17rds(plus 3 or more magazines) to defend yourself if you do have to draw your weapon? Are you living in a combat zone?
Chances are if you do have to draw your weapon, things will happen very quickly and only last a matter of seconds.
A good .22 handgun, that you can practice will inexpensively and often is more than adequate for self defense.
2 to 3 well placed 22's are more effective than one larger caliber bullet that may not go where you want it to.
Big caliber guns are cumbersome to carry. The larger the caliber the more recoil and in a tense situation probably for most people less accurate.
If carrying a big gun makes you feel better, do it. To each his own.
The only 22's I would consider are the Beretta Bobcat pistol or a S&W Revolver for a everyday carry firearm.
No disrespect to anyone intended, just my opinion.

C'mon, anonymous disrespect is what the internet is all about

My original thoughts were very similar to what you stated. If I can only have a few firearms due to cost or time or my significant other's patience and I am trying to cover all my bases of concealability, lower cost, ability to shoot a lot at the range, etc, the 21a in particular appears to cover those requirements. Definitely not the best in any 1 category, but maybe the best at being well rounded. Do the people who refuse the .22 for defense also drive the safest cars (knowing that you have a much higher chance of fatality in a vehicle rather than some sort of shootout)? Probably not because you wanted a vehicle that had other characteristics that were important to you such as MPG, or people capacity or whatever.

Either way, thanks all for the input! At the very least, I have a few other handguns I'd like to look into now. For example, I didn't know there was a .22 conversion kit for the pf9 . . .

 

[crispy]

The conversion kit is the same price as a whole new PF-9.

Go here:

www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf
http://mouse
Just about every pocket gun you could want is in there. Some of the "larger" .22lr pistols are not. The Walther P-22 is not really a pocket gun. However, one gun that is not on there, that is almost exactly the same size as my PF-9, is the Bersa Thunder 380CC.

But if you want a true "pocket" gun, you're going to need to stick to the .380s and under. None of these are going to be good range shooters. It's like asking for a 7 passenger car that gets 40MPG. You're asking for two diametrically opposed qualities.