Maybe you guys can give me a straight answer...

[redpitbull44]

Simple questions I think:
What SOT and FFL types do I need to legally manufacture machine guns? (as "samples" or whatever)

What SOT and FFL types do I need to obtain newly manufactured machine guns?

I am pretty sure to obtain newly manufactured (like a Kriss Super-V SMG for example) I need a demo letter.

Do I need a demo letter to manufacture a machine gun?

Also, What SOT and FFL types do I need to obtain and sell suppressors?

I am guessing if I can obtain newly manufactured machine guns, I would also be able to obtain SBRs and SBS's as well. Yes? No?

I found this:
FFL Types
But I am still confused. Thanks in advance.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Simple questions I think:
What SOT and FFL types do I need to legally manufacture machine guns? (as "samples" or whatever)

07/SOT

What SOT and FFL types do I need to obtain newly manufactured machine guns?

Any w/SOT

I am pretty sure to obtain newly manufactured (like a Kriss Super-V SMG for example) I need a demo letter.

Yes

Do I need a demo letter to manufacture a machine gun?

No

Also, What SOT and FFL types do I need to obtain and sell suppressors?

any FFL + SOT

I am guessing if I can obtain newly manufactured machine guns, I would also be able to obtain SBRs and SBS's as well. Yes? No?

Yes

I found this:
FFL Types
But I am still confused. Thanks in advance.

Hopefully this ends your confusion.

 

[redpitbull44]

Yes, it does. It confirms what I thought. I appreciate your straightforward answers and lack of jackassery in your response. I am going to buy one of your products, and buy you a drink.

A few other questions:

Do I need a brick and mortar store location, business plan, working capital etc to be approved for 07/Class 3 SOT status?

What are the typical yearly costs of the licenses, taxes, and fees only? (not including store location overhead/insurance/etc)

What is the typical process to obtain from a manufacturer? I am guessing you have specific government protocol that has to be followed, dealer ID numbers, etc that have to be presented.

 

[japartridge]

RedPitBull, from what I have found out during my research the ATF has pretty much made it impossible to get an FFL now without a brick and mortor location.... of course you can get away with a converted garage from what I have seen.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Yes, it does. It confirms what I thought. I appreciate your straightforward answers and lack of jackassery in your response. I am going to buy one of your products, and buy you a drink.

A few other questions:

Do I need a brick and mortar store location, business plan, working capital etc to be approved for 07/Class 3 SOT status?

To get the license? No, no, no. To succeed? No, yes, yes.

What are the typical yearly costs of the licenses, taxes, and fees only? (not including store location overhead/insurance/etc)

$500 or $1,000 for SOT
~$70 for the FFL

What is the typical process to obtain from a manufacturer? I am guessing you have specific government protocol that has to be followed, dealer ID numbers, etc that have to be presented.

Don't really understand this question. You file out a form, attach a check, passport photos and fingerprint cards, and send to the ATF. 45 - 60 days later they'll schedule a site visit. Whether you want to be a dealer or manufacturer you have to show the property is properly zoned. That's all.

RedPitBull, from what I have found out during my research the ATF has pretty much made it impossible to get an FFL now without a brick and mortor location.... of course you can get away with a converted garage from what I have seen.

Not true at all. You have to show the premises are zoned properly. That's the only thing the ATF cares about on site selection.

 

[redpitbull44]

What is the typical process to obtain from a manufacturer? I am guessing you have specific government protocol that has to be followed, dealer ID numbers, etc that have to be presented.

Don't really understand this question. You file out a form, attach a check, passport photos and fingerprint cards, and send to the ATF. 45 - 60 days later they'll schedule a site visit. Whether you want to be a dealer or manufacturer you have to show the property is properly zoned. That's all.

You are talking about the basic process to start the process of becoming an FFL.
I meant what do you have to go through to get a new machine gun from the manufacturer. For instance, say I want a Kriss Super V and I already have my type 7 Class 3 SOT, I know I need an LEO demo letter and the money to buy it, but what happens from there? I contact the MFG or other FFL/SOT who has one, provide him with my demo letter, FFL/SOT info and pay him? Anything I missed?

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

You are talking about the basic process to start the process of becoming an FFL.
I meant what do you have to go through to get a new machine gun from the manufacturer. For instance, say I want a Kriss Super V and I already have my type 7 Class 3 SOT, I know I need an LEO demo letter and the money to buy it, but what happens from there? I contact the MFG or other FFL/SOT who has one, provide him with my demo letter, FFL/SOT info and pay him? Anything I missed?

That's about it.

 

[ryknoll3]

If you go the manufacturer route, don't forget the $2,250 ITAR in addition to the regular $500 SOT fee.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

If you go the manufacturer route, don't forget the $2,250 ITAR in addition to the regular $500 SOT fee.

Only if you qualify. Not all manufacturers are required to fpay the ITAR fine.

 

[japartridge]

Sorry, I should have mentioned that my research was based in Monroe County... and it's not really the AFT here, sorry.

USMC you are correct, the AFT doesn't really care.... it's my county commissioners that make it almost impossible. sorry, didn't mean to mislead....

 

[curraheeguns]

Only if you qualify. Not all manufacturers are required to fpay the ITAR fine.

This is highly debated in the industry.

As I read the ITAR regulations ANY manufacturer that plans to manufacture an item on the defense munitions list FOR SALE is required to pay ITAR, including suppressors, SBR's, SBS's, AOW's, and machineguns.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

This is highly debated in the industry.

As I read the ITAR regulations ANY manufacturer that plans to manufacture an item on the defense munitions list FOR SALE is required to pay ITAR, including suppressors, SBR's, SBS's, AOW's, and machineguns.

Highly debated yes. Fact certain no.

There are a number of manufacturers that (claim to) have been granted ITAR waivers. Some only manufacture suppressors.

 

[redpitbull44]

So basically we are talking $3000 a year to get and maintain said licenses, taxes, fines and fees.

Now lets say you can't afford that anymore. Do you have to liquidate any and all NFA items you have pretty much, unless you paid the $5 AOW or $200 tax stamp on them? I would take that to mean pretty much any newly manufactured machine gun you've purchased, or that you've made for that matter would have to go.

If the above is accurate, what can be done to legally keep said items if you were to give up on the FFL/SOT thing? Some sort of trust or LLC possibly?

 

[curraheeguns]

So basically we are talking $3000 a year to get and maintain said licenses, taxes, fines and fees.

Now lets say you can't afford that anymore. Do you have to liquidate any and all NFA items you have pretty much, unless you paid the $5 AOW or $200 tax stamp on them? I would take that to mean pretty much any newly manufactured machine gun you've purchased, or that you've made for that matter would have to go.

If the above is accurate, what can be done to legally keep said items if you were to give up on the FFL/SOT thing? Some sort of trust or LLC possibly?

Post sample machine guns must be disposed of per federal law. SBS's must be disposed of per state law. Transferables, SBR's, Suppressors & AOW's may be kept tax free if your FFL/SOT is in your name as an individual even if they are on a Form 3 and you give up your FFL/SOT because no transfer takes place. If your FFL/SOT is in a LLC or Corp. name then that LLC/Corp. can keep the the Transferables, SBR's, Suppressors or AOW's tax free as long as that LLC/Corp. is a legal entity, again because no transfer takes place.

Now, with that being said. Case law is present for a tax evasion cases fr people who have started companies, stock piled and went out of business but then kept a poop load of stuff without paying the $200/per tax on it. The .gov rammed it home on several people and in the long run it cost them much much more then $200/per.

 

[redpitbull44]

Post sample meaning ones I've built?
Transferables meaning something I've purchased from another FFL/SOT or a manufacturer (Like a Kriss Super V SMG as an example)?

And on the rest:
Ok, well I am not intending to do the stockpile and and dash thing. I really want to start a business building and selling guns and accessories, and I really want to be able to offer ALL products, from the single shot .22 to the Ma Deuce. I want the broadest customer base possible. Of course, its gonna be wicked awesome to have some machine guns layin' around and whatnot, but that's not my sole driving force. I will probably have to start off slow, but I'm sure most guys do.

 

[curraheeguns]

Post sample meaning ones I've built?
Transferables meaning something I've purchased from another FFL/SOT or a manufacturer (Like a Kriss Super V SMG as an example)?

And on the rest:
Ok, well I am not intending to do the stockpile and and dash thing. I really want to start a business building and selling guns and accessories, and I really want to be able to offer ALL products, from the single shot .22 to the Ma Deuce. I want the broadest customer base possible. Of course, its gonna be wicked awesome to have some machine guns layin' around and whatnot, but that's not my sole driving force. I will probably have to start off slow, but I'm sure most guys do.

A post sample machine gun is any machine gun built after May of 1986. If you buy it (even as a manufacturer) it must be with a law enforcement demo letter (with exception of an 07 buying it from a dealer or other 07 going out of business), if you make it you register it on a Form 2. Regardless they all go away when you give up your FFL/SOT.

Transferables are no cheaper to buy with a FFL/SOT then for jo schmo consumer, except that the seller must understand that you are either not going to give him retail or you are not going to buy it. If you do give retail for machinguns you won't be in business long and you don't need a FFL/SOT anyway.

 

[redpitbull44]

A post sample machine gun is any machine gun built after May of 1986. If you buy it (even as a manufacturer) it must be with a law enforcement demo letter (with exception of an 07 buying it from a dealer or other 07 going out of business), if you make it you register it on a Form 2. Regardless they all go away when you give up your FFL/SOT.

Transferables are no cheaper to buy with a FFL/SOT then for jo schmo consumer, except that the seller must understand that you are either not going to give him retail or you are not going to buy it. If you do give retail for machinguns you won't be in business long and you don't need a FFL/SOT anyway.

Gotcha, so to put that in laymans terms, Post sample means made after 1986, and transferable means made before 1986. And you're dang right about NOT paying retail on transferables. The prices on those are crazy. $45,000 on an M60, and I saw a Gov't price one time for a M240, it was under $4000 as I recall.

Thank you, you guys have been a big help.
I was wondering one other thing though. How do you go about getting a demo letter signed. I mean, what do you do, go in to the county Sheriff or Chief of Police and say "Hey, I sell Class 3 stuff and if you'd just sign right here I can get several kick ass toys for you guys to play with." ???

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I was wondering one other thing though. How do you go about getting a demo letter signed. I mean, what do you do, go in to the county Sheriff or Chief of Police and say "Hey, I sell Class 3 stuff and if you'd just sign right here I can get several kick ass toys for you guys to play with." ???

That's probably the quickest way to not get a demo letter ever. You need to build a trust relationship with the SO or PD.

 

[redpitbull44]

That's probably the quickest way to not get a demo letter ever. You need to build a trust relationship with the SO or PD.

I was being mildly facetious.

I guess what I am saying is; I know some CLEO's are gun guys, and some aren't. I also know each person reacts differently to a different approach, responds differently to different things, etc. I doubt a rural county Sheriff is going to see the need for all of his deputies to be equipped with select fire rifles or something, but I reckon if he's a gun guy he'd still be interested in checking them out...

So, demo letters have to list specific makes and models you are going to receive in, quantity, etc, and then the CLEO signs off on it if he's ok with it?

 

[mjrducky]

I don't know this answer 100% but from what I've been told in the past it's a letter from the police or sheriffs office on their letter head requesting a demonstration of XYZ gun. Signed of course.

You use that letter when you order the XYZ gun for demo purposes.

I think thats how it goes. Now lets see how close I am.