LEO comments on trespassng and going to jail

[usmcdjb]

I say, let's look at the IC and see what it says about trespass............I post version b, which takes effect July 1, 2014, but really the only change from current code is the level of felony it references in (a)(8)(B)

I think it starts to get interesting at (a)(7), and might apply since it is vacant property, that you are trespassing after being prohibited by a LEO. But if you keep going, it says in (c) that they may not ask you to leave unless there is reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

Seems like you're out of the woods, except that (b)(2) indicates you have been denied entry based upon the sign at the entrance, so there is the reasonable suspicion.

(d) actually references the written permission but says it grants permission to be on the property to do maintenance, repair or demolition.

I suppose it's possible that a police officer could arrest you based on all of this. I seriously wonder if a prosecutor would file charges. But that doesn't make the ordeal any more enjoyable.

It's worth mentioning, IANAL. I am a reserve deputy though, and you can bet I would attempt to make contact with the land owner before I jailed someone for trespass under these circumstances.




IC 35-43-2-2 Version b
Criminal trespass; denial of entry; permission to enter; exceptions
Note: This version of section amended by P.L.158-2013, SEC.462, effective 7-1-2014. See also preceding version of this section amended by P.L.203-2013, SEC.25.
Sec. 2. (a) A person who:
(1) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally enters the real property of another person after having been denied entry by the other person or that person's agent;
(2) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally refuses to leave the real property of another person after having been asked to leave by the other person or that person's agent;
(3) accompanies another person in a vehicle, with knowledge that the other person knowingly or intentionally is exerting unauthorized control over the vehicle;
(4) knowingly or intentionally interferes with the possession or use of the property of another person without the person's consent;
(5) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally enters the dwelling of another person without the person's consent;(6) knowingly or intentionally:
(A) travels by train without lawful authority or the railroad carrier's consent; and
(B) rides on the outside of a train or inside a passenger car, locomotive, or freight car, including a boxcar, flatbed, or container without lawful authority or the railroad carrier's consent;
(7) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly or intentionally enters or refuses to leave the property of another person after having been prohibited from entering or asked to leave the property by a law enforcement officer when the property is:
(A) vacant or designated by a municipality or county enforcement authority to be abandoned property; and
(B) subject to abatement under IC 32-30-6, IC 32-30-7, IC 32-30-8, IC 36-7-9, or IC 36-7-36; or
(8) knowingly or intentionally enters the property of another person after being denied entry by a court order that has been issued to the person or issued to the general public by conspicuous posting on or around the premises in areas where a person can observe the order when the property:
(A) has been designated by a municipality or county enforcement authority to be a vacant property or an abandoned property; and
(B) is subject to an abatement order under IC 32-30-6, IC 32-30-7, IC 32-30-8, IC 36-7-9, or IC 36-7-36;
commits criminal trespass, a Class A misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Level 6 felony if it is committed on a scientific research facility, on a key facility, on a facility belonging to a public utility (as defined in IC 32-24-1-5.9(a)), on school property, or on a school bus or the person has a prior unrelated conviction for an offense under this section concerning the same property.
(b) A person has been denied entry under subsection (a)(1) when the person has been denied entry by means of:
(1) personal communication, oral or written;
(2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the attention of the public; or
(3) a hearing authority or court order under IC 32-30-6, IC 32-30-7, IC 32-30-8, IC 36-7-9, or IC 36-7-36.
(c) A law enforcement officer may not deny entry to property or ask a person to leave a property under subsection (a)(7) unless there is reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has occurred or is occurring.
(d) A person described in subsection (a)(7) violates subsection (a)(7) unless the person has the written permission of the owner, owner's agent, enforcement authority, or court to come onto the property for purposes of performing maintenance, repair, or demolition.
(e) A person described in subsection (a)(8) violates subsection(a)(8) unless the court that issued the order denying the person entry grants permission for the person to come onto the property.
(f) Subsections (a), (b), and (e) do not apply to the following:
(1) A passenger on a train.
(2) An employee of a railroad carrier while engaged in the performance of official duties.
(3) A law enforcement officer, firefighter, or emergency response personnel while engaged in the performance of official duties.
(4) A person going on railroad property in an emergency to rescue a person or animal from harm's way or to remove an object that the person reasonably believes poses an imminent threat to life or limb.
(5) A person on the station grounds or in the depot of a railroad carrier:
(A) as a passenger; or
(B) for the purpose of transacting lawful business.
(6) A:
(A) person; or
(B) person's:
(i) family member;
(ii) invitee;
(iii) employee;
(iv) agent; or
(v) independent contractor;
going on a railroad's right-of-way for the purpose of crossing at a private crossing site approved by the railroad carrier to obtain access to land that the person owns, leases, or operates.
(7) A person having written permission from the railroad carrier to go on specified railroad property.
(8) A representative of the Indiana department of transportation while engaged in the performance of official duties.
(9) A representative of the federal Railroad Administration while engaged in the performance of official duties.
(10) A representative of the National Transportation Safety Board while engaged in the performance of official duties.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.3. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.43; P.L.151-1989, SEC.12; P.L.242-1993, SEC.2; P.L.164-1993, SEC.11; P.L.1-1994, SEC.168; P.L.259-1999, SEC.3; P.L.158-2009, SEC.7; P.L.88-2009, SEC.4; P.L.158-2013, SEC.462.

 

[CoachStall]

In that situation, I would have called the property owner's number you provide me. Granted, how do i know i'm really speaking to the real property owner?

I can say it would be foolish to out right arrest you for trespassing, when the Owner of the property has not called to complain. I would not even be able to issue you written trespass warning without the owner advising me they wanted you trespassed.

If a no trespassing sign is posted and you claim to have permission, i'm still not hooking anyone up on it.

You did it right by providing a name and number of the owner. Maybe get a "permission slip" but again, like the phone call, how authentic can it be? Maybe the owner can call the Sheriff's office, and advise if any other incidents occur there, to have him called to verify.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

That Rookie! He's a helper!

 

[SteveM4A1]

amboy, what have you learned from INGO about taking legal advice from the police?

I own my property. Need I write myself a letter to give myself consent to be upon my property?

Yes obviously. It is the LAW!

 

[Rookie]

State law. I swear to god it is.

 

[88GT]

The irony here is that the permission slip is just as easily forged as the name and number someone might have in his possession. That LEO is a bit of a dumbass.

 

[Rookie]

Just a bit?

 

[88GT]

Just a bit?

Yeah, the authority-tripping side pretty much dominates. Not much room for anything else.

 

[amboy49]

In that situation, I would have called the property owner's number you provide me. Granted, how do i know i'm really speaking to the real property owner?

I can say it would be foolish to out right arrest you for trespassing, when the Owner of the property has not called to complain. I would not even be able to issue you written trespass warning without the owner advising me they wanted you trespassed.

If a no trespassing sign is posted and you claim to have permission, i'm still not hooking anyone up on it.

You did it right by providing a name and number of the owner. Maybe get a "permission slip" but again, like the phone call, how authentic can it be? Maybe the owner can call the Sheriff's office, and advise if any other incidents occur there, to have him called to verify.

So I'm thinking here's the scenario.

1. Officer confronts me. I say I have permission. He says prove it. I provide the owner's name and phone number. He says how do I know the person I am calling is who you say he is.

2. Next step - I say I have written permission from the landowner. He says let's see it. I produce a one paragraph statement giving me permission to be on the property for all lawfull purpose. The deputy says how do I know the landowner wrote it.

3. So I get the owner's signature on the permission notarized. Deputy says - how do I know the notary is legal and how do I know that is the landowner ?

4. So I get a copy of the current plat book and highlight the name. Not good enough, so I get a copy of the recorded deed from the county courthouse with the owner's name.

5. Deputy states the deed I am showing him was recorded several years ago. How does he know the land hasn't changed hands since the time the deed I'm showing him was recorded.

6. So I get my GoPro and record my friend , who is holding a local paper that clearly reflects the date, stating that I have permission to be on the property and showing us both in the picture with him giving me a big hug.

7. Deputy states how does he know this is the real landowner and not just my gay friend contributing to the conspiracy. ( No, I am not gay and don't have a gay friend - thought I should clarify that )

8. So I say - here's a written affidavit of my bona fides from my past boy scout leader, my mother, my pastor, my wife, the choral director of my church, and 18 guys that are fellow volunteer firefighters. He says "You can't get anything past me that easily" and I'm off to jail for the night.

9. I call an attorney who charges me $1,000 to speak to the judge while my wife is withdrawing enough cash to bond me out. In the meantime the local paper has published all of the latest police calls and jailed offenders. My name appears and now my employer and the two community not-for-profit boards I am on see this so I get fired and kicked off the two boards because I've violated the moral turpitude clause on my employer.

10. The attorney states he's gotten me off but he needs another $5,000 for his valuable time and experience. I get the cash bond money back but because my wife took it out of the wrong account the bank charges me a $50 overdraft fee.

11. My kids see the write-up in the local paper and mistakenly call to ask why their father is now a convicted felon who has forfeited his rights to gun ownershp ? They know I am an endowement member of the NRA, a military veteran, and have generally been an upstanding member of the community for over 30 years without so much as a moving traffic violation.

12. Because I've lost my job I can no longer support my wife in the manner she's become accustomed to and leaves me for a 20 something she met while at the grocery who has just happened to have hit the Power Ball and is now worth $250 million dollars.

13. I'm now left to go down to Indianapolis on the street corner with a sign around my neck stating "Will work for food."

Maybe I should just join the Marion County Fish and Game Club and shoot there ?

 

[Rookie]

So I'm thinking here's the scenario.

1. Officer confronts me. I say I have permission. He says prove it. I provide the owner's name and phone number. He says how do I know the person I am calling is who you say he is.

2. Next step - I say I have written permission from the landowner. He says let's see it. I produce a one paragraph statement giving me permission to be on the property for all lawfull purpose. The deputy says how do I know the landowner wrote it.

3. So I get the owner's signature on the permission notarized. Deputy says - how do I know the notary is legal and how do I know that is the landowner ?

4. So I get a copy of the current plat book and highlight the name. Not good enough, so I get a copy of the recorded deed from the county courthouse with the owner's name.

5. Deputy states the deed I am showing him was recorded several years ago. How does he know the land hasn't changed hands since the time the deed I'm showing him was recorded.

6. So I get my GoPro and record my friend , who is holding a local paper that clearly reflects the date, stating that I have permission to be on the property and showing us both in the picture with him giving me a big hug.

7. Deputy states how does he know this is the real landowner and not just my gay friend contributing to the conspiracy. ( No, I am not gay and don't have a gay friend - thought I should clarify that )

8. So I say - here's a written affidavit of my bona fides from my past boy scout leader, my mother, my pastor, my wife, the choral director of my church, and 18 guys that are fellow volunteer firefighters. He says "You can't get anything past me that easily" and I'm off to jail for the night.

9. I call an attorney who charges me $1,000 to speak to the judge while my wife is withdrawing enough cash to bond me out. In the meantime the local paper has published all of the latest police calls and jailed offenders. My name appears and now my employer and the two community not-for-profit boards I am on see this so I get fired and kicked off the two boards because I've violated the moral turpitude clause on my employer.

10. The attorney states he's gotten me off but he needs another $5,000 for his valuable time and experience. I get the cash bond money back but because my wife took it out of the wrong account the bank charges me a $50 overdraft fee.

11. My kids see the write-up in the local paper and mistakenly call to ask why their father is now a convicted felon who has forfeited his rights to gun ownershp ? They know I am an endowement member of the NRA, a military veteran, and have generally been an upstanding member of the community for over 30 years without so much as a moving traffic violation.

12. Because I've lost my job I can no longer support my wife in the manner she's become accustomed to and leaves me for a 20 something she met while at the grocery who has just happened to have hit the Power Ball and is now worth $250 million dollars.

13. I'm now left to go down to Indianapolis on the street corner with a sign around my neck stating "Will work for food."

Maybe I should just join the Marion County Fish and Game Club and shoot there ?

You're thinking too much.

Officer confronts me. I tell him to get ****ed.

 

[deltaecho]

The landowner does have a no trespassing sign on the gate. The thought just occured to me I might be better off keeping a good attorney's phone number in my wallet. (?)

You should ALWAYS be keeping a good attorney's phone number in your wallet.

That reminds me...I need to find me a good attorney to keep around.

 

[pute62]

"Got home about 15 minutes later only to have a sheriff's deputy pull up in my driveway." At which point, I went on in the house and enjoyed my evening. Why even have a conversation with the sheriff's deputy?

 

[VERT]

I looked up Zionsville and noticed it is in Boone County. Knowing who the Sheriff is up there why don't you give him a call. The IC for trespassing was posted. If landowner doesn't complain, you are being safe and not doing anything illegal then it really is not an issue that involves the Deputy.

 

[ticktwrter]

Keep the land owners number on speed dial. Next time you are confronted by an LEO, pull out the phone, dial up the land owner, hand said phone to the LEO, and have him verify you can be there himself, end of conversation.

That wouldn't work for me in most cases. How do I know who I am talking with on the phone? On the other hand, I don't know how he could arrest the OP without the owner telling him to get off the property. It would not be an arrest I would make

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That's not how trespass works. Marion county won't file even if there is signage if you weren't notified in person and it was documented.

Now, I'll tell a largely irrelevant "back in the day" story of when it could work like that. My maternal grandfather owned rural property that he only visited on weekends, as he lived and worked in the city. He had a good sized pond and had trouble with people fishing in it without permission. He posted no trespass signs without much affect. Finally he made "permission slips" (done on business cards) that said "________ has my permission to fish and or hunt on my property from X date to Y date" and his signature. He contacted the Sheriff, let him know of the arrangement, and gave him permission to issue trespass notices and arrest anyone without said card.

Now, that was about 30 years ago and in a very rural county with a small sheriff's department and one criminal court judge. Things are different now.

 

[ModernGunner]

I'd give a shout to the Sheriff, since ya know him. That'd be the most expedient way to handle it.

As for the Deputy or Officer arriving, they're just playing 'Tommy Tough'. There's a percentage of those likely on every Department. Worked with a few.

If you don't have permission to be on the property and the owner wants you off, it's up to that Deputy to verify it. He / she can call it in, and verify who the owner is, if HE wants. His 'independent' verification is the only thing that would satisfy him, anyway. So, let him go verify!

By the same token, before I'd get 'too' cocky, I'd make sure those rounds AREN'T flying off the property and 'whizzing over the heads' of the neighbors.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Bung]

Even if you produced a written document he would just claim you forged it. When LEO's ask for my pink permission slip I show it to them, then they ask for my DL because, you know, I could have faked that LTCH. Never mind that I could have faked the DL.

 

[Bigtanker]

On the bottom of the No Trespassing sign, add "Except (your name here)"

 

[30calmachinegunner]

I know the sheriff and the incumbent who will take office this fall since he running unopposed. I did consider giving one of them a call and have them provide the Indiana code ( or at least confirm the deputy's statement ). I told the deputy if he wanted to have the sheriff or incumbent contact me they were welcome to do so. The current sheriff in my county is actually pro-gun and I have taken a couple of defensive pistol classes he teaches. I've known both for quite some time.

Must be Ken Cambell in Boone county

 

[churchmouse]

Yes, you risk being detained because he's an idiot.

^^^^^this^^^^^

I would have asked him to leave "MY" property as he did not have a signed document from me stating he could be there.

A$$ hat neighbor can say anything they want. With out a hole in his house or car he has no proof you were being un-safe. Sheriff had no business bothering you with this.