Is ammunition that important?

[Joseph]

Maybe I am being ignorant here but I see a lot of stuff from time to time posted on the web about what is the better pp hd round. This is not an argument on caliber but rather jhp vs fmj. I hope I am not alone in thinking that even if you use federal red box or Winchester white box and shoot an intruder or general baddy in the chest or in the head would it not stop said person in their tracks? We can argue over penetration, expansion, performance all day but that does not mean anything if you do not hit your target. Ammunition is as much a tool as your preferred weapon but does it really matter if you empty your mag into a bag guy and get 45% hit ratio to center mass? My whole argument is pretty much based on the fact that shot placement is 100% more important than how a bullet performs once it hits said target. Our military do to the geneva convention must use Fmj bullets, now the weight and powder load may vary a bit but they are trained to be accurate under stress so they hit what they are aiming at, should not that be the same principle we use to judge our effectiveness while in a defensive situation rather than how much expansion a hornaday or gold dot has? I do carry jhp mind you but I would feel just as comfortable with Winchester white box in my carry weapon because I train to hit the target no matter what is spewing from the barrel.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

9mm Nato Ball is a horrible manstopper and its performance or lack thereof is well documented.

My bigger concern with ball ammo is over penetration. Shoot a bad guy with 9mm ball and you'll likely put that round straight through him. a HP isn't going to do that.

Unless you have a legal requirement to do so, do not carry ball ammo for defense. Period.

 

[NIFT]

Yes, ammunition is that important. Firearms are almost useless without ammunition.

 

[iChokePeople]

Even with a perfect shot, you still have to worry about overpenetration. Killed the bad guy with one perfect shot, but also killed the pregnant woman standing behind him? Good luck.

 

[armedindy]

Yes, ammunition is that important. Firearms are almost useless without ammunition.

 

[Joseph]

I agree with over penetration, I digress On that point.t

 

[OneBadV8]

The big debate is usually how well they expand/fragment. The more of it that happens the better you're able to bleed out the threat. And also, the faster and quicker they expand the quicker they transfer their energy into the target/threat. That should convince them they've made a bad choice one way or another.

 

[esrice]

the faster and quicker they expand the quicker they transfer their energy into the target/threat.

Aside from the overpenetration issue, this is the main reason to pick JHPs over FMJs. Handgun rounds are underpowered as it is, so we need them to dump ALL of their energy into the target. If they zip right through a person they retain some of their energy and aren't as effective.

 

[jdhaines]

I agree...as long as it's a solid reputable recognized JHP design, you're good to go. I personally only carry the old Federal 9BPLE border patrol round. It doesn't expand into the whizzbang fancy pants points that HST does, but it's much cheaper and mushrooms very reliably. It's killed more people than any other JHP out there because they used it throughout the 90s. You can find smoking deals on bulk if you watch. The whole reason I carry 9mm is so I can hit follow up shots faster and carry more ammunition. Stay away from ball, then make sure whatever you want to carry works 100%...then buy more of it and shoot the bajezzus out of it.

 

[NIFT]

Energy is not a wounding mechanism. Energy, itself, does not displace tissue, and energy is a poor proxy for the processes that do displace tissue.

For example, consider four "energy dumps:"
1. An athletic woman delivers a hard punch to quadricep muscles.
2. A .22 short is fired into quadricep muscles and does not exit, thereby "dumping" all of its "energy."
3. a 500 grain broadhead hunting arrow is shot into quadricep muscles and stays in the leg, thereby "dumping" all of its "energy."
4. a razor-sharp, large knife is drawn across quadricep muscles, inflicting a long and very deep laceration.

The punch from the woman "deposits" the most "energy" but causes the least injury, and the knife "deposits" the least "energy" while causing the most damage.

The .22 short has more "energy" than the broadhead arrow, but the arrow inflicts a much greater wound.

As we progress down the above list, the "energy dump" decreases, while the wounding or tissue displacement increases.

The modern study of terminal ballistics has thoroughly debunked the idea that a projectile's wounding capacity is a function of its kinetic energy. In fact, the work of the Letterman Army Institute for Research under Col. Dr. Martin Fackler and, now, Dr. Gary Roberts, along with the work of the FBI's Ballistic Research Facility, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and a number of reputable entities, has demonstrated that, often, more kinetic enegy results in decreased wounding effectiveness. A cartridge's kinetic energy is, inherently, a very poor way to evaluate terminal performance.

 

[ATM]

...We can argue over penetration, expansion, performance all day but that does not mean anything if you do not hit your target.

Apples and oranges.
I don't think anyone has ever argued that misses can be used to compare any of the above.

...My whole argument is pretty much based on the fact that shot placement is 100% more important than how a bullet performs once it hits said target.

Then it's a really short argument. Bullet performance is only compared with hits.
All misses, regardless of ammo choice, are considered to be equally poor and ineffective.

..I train to hit the target no matter what is spewing from the barrel.

Are you suggesting that others don't, or that they believe they should miss more if they are shooting really fancy bullets?

 

[Slapstick]

Apples and oranges.
I don't think anyone has ever argued that misses can be used to compare any of the above.

Then it's a really short argument. Bullet performance is only compared with hits.
All misses, regardless of ammo choice, are considered to be equally poor and ineffective.


Are you suggesting that others don't, or that they believe they should miss more if they are shooting really fancy bullets?

I take it what he was saying is that shot placement to a vital area is more important that what bullet you're shooting. A FMJ to the brain stem is just as effective as a HP while a gut shot by either may not take fight out the person. 3 to the center mass with either should do the trick on a normal sized person but 1 may not. It's about hitting the vitals not missing them.

I have to agree with NIFT's post on the energy transfer of bullet to the target. If tissue were hard then energy transfer may play a big part but skin and tissue is very elastic so it absorbs the energy with out much damage.

One other thing I was read about FMJ vs HP is that a FMJ will penetrate deeper and if it exits it leave 2 holes to bleed out through instead of 1. Also because it exits it does tissue damage all the through and the chance of hitting a major blood vessel, the spine or other vital area is increased.

 

[ATM]

I take it what he was saying is that shot placement to a vital area is more important that what bullet you're shooting...

Right. That's why I said it was apples and oranges.

Unless certain bullets caused you to be less accurate, you only compare the type of damage they were engineered to do when they impact.

For instance, it is of no concern to me if the attacker later ends up bleeding out of those extra exit wounds a FMJ may cause. The lack of tissue damage done by a non-expanding round penetrating straight through their body may leave them quite capable of sustaining their attack for several minutes before their blood pressure drops to the point of unconsciousness. I'd rather the attacker be incapacitated as fast as possible and that their body contain every ravaging piece of shrapnel I sent into them.

 

[NIFT]

I have to agree with NIFT's post on the energy transfer of bullet to the target. If tissue were hard then energy transfer may play a big part but skin and tissue is very elastic so it absorbs the energy with out much damage.

That is neither what I said nor what I meant.
The role of "energy transfer" does not depend on the type of tissue encountered, because "energy transfer" has almost nothing to do with tissue displacement from penetrating missiles.

Again, kinetic energy is not a wounding mechanism, and "energy dump" is a widespread fallacy that has, essentially, nothing to do with terminal performance and the pathophysiology of penetrating trauma. The wound profile has everything to do with terminal performance and "energy dump" is unrelated.

Another associated item:
The anatomical location of tissue displacement determines the speed of physiological incapacitation, and the only location that causes instantaneous incapacitation is from the brain stem to cervical vertebrae #7, which is a very small target--about 7" to 8" long and less that 1" wide.

Shot placement is a training issue and is independent from projectile terminal performance: one does not change with changes to the other. Most (all) discussions of projectile terminal performance include at least one person stating accuracy/shot placement is the most important. Yes, the anatomical location of tissue displacement is critical, but it is independent of projectile (bullet) technology, design, and manufacturing.

Training does not change depending on whether Federal 180 grain JHP bullets are used or whether Winchesterr 165 grain JHPs are used. Similarly, ammunition and bullets do not change with changes in training.

It is important not to confuse the two.

 

[Slapstick]

NIFT, sorry I was actually agreeing with you. Energy transfer is soft media does not cause a lot of damage, sort of like is you shot a truck inner tube filled with water, you'd just get a small hole in it but if you shot a concrete block then there's going to be damage, soft flexible materiel not much damage, hard easily fractured material then there is damage from energy transfer, is that better? Of course that only goes for projectiles traveling relatively slow like a pistol bullet.

Again I agree, "kinetic energy is not a wounding mechanism, and "energy dump" is a widespread fallacy that has, essentially, nothing to do with terminal performance and the pathophysiology of penetrating trauma."

Again I agree with you about Shot Placement being independent from projectile performance. It's two separate issues but of the two I hope we can agree that there is no such thing a a "magic bullet" or "stopping power" because what really matter is hitting the target.

 

[NIFT]

NIFT, sorry I was actually agreeing with you. Energy transfer is soft media does not cause a lot of damage, sort of like is you shot a truck inner tube filled with water, you'd just get a small hole in it but if you shot a concrete block then there's going to be damage, soft flexible materiel not much damage, hard easily fractured material then there is damage from energy transfer, is that better? Of course that only goes for projectiles traveling relatively slow like a pistol bullet.

Again I agree, "kinetic energy is not a wounding mechanism, and "energy dump" is a widespread fallacy that has, essentially, nothing to do with terminal performance and the pathophysiology of penetrating trauma."

Again I agree with you about Shot Placement being independent from projectile performance. It's two separate issues but of the two I hope we can agree that there is no such thing a a "magic bullet" or "stopping power" because what really matter is hitting the target.

Thanks--no problem.
Again, referencing your statement, "Energy transfer is soft media does not cause a lot of damage," the media is not a factor. "Energy transfer" is not the cause of any damage.

It is true that a numerical value of KE can be assigned to a quantity of mass at velocity (a vector,) and that number increases with the square of the velocity, as the mass is a constant. However, it is not the energy that causes tissue disruption, and using KE as a proxy for terminal performance is a common fallacy.

 

[Slapstick]

NIFT, damn you and your fancy college words! I'm feeling stupider by the moment. Ok not really, I already knew I wasn't the brightest bulb in the pack.

 

[the1kidd03]

The anatomical location of tissue displacement determines the speed of physiological incapacitation, and the only location that causes instantaneous incapacitation is from the brain stem to cervical vertebrae #7, which is a very small target--about 7" to 8" long and less that 1" wide.

I agree with NIFT's points, as usual he has presented excellent information but I do wish to point out one additional point/correction in red

numerous expert neurologist have agreed that a disruption to the CNS caused by rounds impacting will cause instantaneous incapacitation, and such occurrences have been documented.....BUT there is no way to test "how" it causes this disruption...and in instances where the spinal cord was obviously unaffected but the attacker instantly dropped proceeding an impacted round and yet the rounds have not impacted in identical places on multiple subjects...and so the best conclusion they can draw is from a choice in the ammunition in those instances, which is what Masaad Ayoob presented in his works in recent years from which he discloses that the characteristics of the choice in ammo for these occurances seem to share the properties of having a "medium weight projectile, generally HP, traveling at a relatively high speed for its caliber"............

of course again since there is no way to test it, we are limited to his findings through field reports, witnesses, and coroners' reports because nobody is going to volunteer to get shot for ballistics testing to determine what EXACTLY causes a CNS disruption other than hitting the spinal column...but when multiple departments across various regions report similar affects from similar/identical rounds...I tend to be willing to trust such experience, especially if medical experts agree that it occurs but they can't be sure HOW

point being that the brain stem is not the "only" location that can stop a man in his tracks, but it is the "only" one that has/can be proven by medical science to date.....considering all of this, my choice of ammunition would be one that displays the characteristics mentioned previously as it can only increase your chances of stopping an attacker......

as for the OP, you do need to be accurate...that's a given.....but it is medically proven that a man on an adrenaline dump, with increased oxygen flow to his brain and/or muscles can maintain physical capabilities and thus continue his attack for up to 14 seconds even after you completely stop his heart....that being said again, i'll put my life on the line with ammo that has proven to be more effective at disrupting the CNS and stopping an attacker instantly...rather than a round which is known to overpenetrate

 

[Richwon4]

This thread poses many questions to me as an under read home defender. I have a small home which means I don't practice from distances. I keep a loaded 357 with JHP close by hoping to never have to use it. I want a load that will not go through the target into the neighbors house. 38 something is an option as well as 9mm. I suppose I could have someone put more lead and less powder into my home defense rounds. Is that a possibility?

 

[sloughfoot]

This thread poses many questions to me as an under read home defender. I have a small home which means I don't practice from distances. I keep a loaded 357 with JHP close by hoping to never have to use it. I want a load that will not go through the target into the neighbors house. 38 something is an option as well as 9mm. I suppose I could have someone put more lead and less powder into my home defense rounds. Is that a possibility?

Richwon, although I don't disagree with any of the previous posts, there are no guarantees about anything when talking about handgun bullet performance. Especially penetration. A hollow point that gets plugged up with coat material will act similar to a FMJ bullet. The guy that is deserving of the shot could be a skinny 120 lb person or a big fat, waddling, 350 lb guy.

The ideal for all of us, is the round that expands perfectly and stays within the body of the person that needs to be shot. There just is NO WAY to guarantee that. 12 inches of penetration may completely penetrate Mr skinny and barely reach the vitals of Mr fatty. Or just the opposite. There is not a bullet manufacturer out there that can guarantee ANYTHING. Some amazing SD ammo is being marketed, there is no HP ammo that guarantees anything.

Situational awareness is important whenever things are getting serious and the hog leg needs to be employed. Believe me, you can almost always decide the angle of the shot, if you have to take the shot. It can be as simple as dropping to a knee and angling the shot upward. Or realizing that your car in the garage is a backstop. Or that book case on the wall. I don't know for your layout and circumstance, but if you think about it, you will know.

FMJ bullets have stopped the respiration of a lot of folks. They say "OWWW" and sit down just like they do with HP rounds, in the absence of drug induced further activity. They usually get all teary when they realize what has happened to them. So will you, at some point. Usually when the uncontrollable shaking starts. I have witnessed this.

As to your specific question, I would use the Remington SJHP 357 round or the +P 125 38 Special round for your HD needs. They are both proven, reliable performers. I have them, I use them. There are more modern choices out there too.

For you combat veterans out there, I am talking about civilian stress defense of the home. Not war against our enemies in another hostile country.