How many firearms are in European attics?

[Mosinguy]

Kinda was thinking aloud about this. When you have total war TWICE in your front yard within thirty years of each other, is it too much to assume there are many full-auto goodies, bolt action rifles, handguns, explosives, and artillery hanging out in basements, attics, unused closets, deserted barns, and the like? I'd think there are quite a few weapons hanging out in Europe hidden away in homes, or even purposely buried. What do you guys think?

Tried some google-fu and can't find anything to validate my thoughts on the matter

 

[IndyDave1776]

Really good chance. The Germans were also fond of using lakes as hiding places.

 

[mrjarrell]

I think that many Europeans live in countries where gun ownership is restricted, but not outlawed. Many of them legally own guns, just like we do here. Just not as many of them as us. And they're heavily regulated. Are there war trophies in basements and attics? Quite likely in places like France, (I remember an article on the subject from a few years ago, but nothing specific other than rumours that lots of trophies existed in basements), but not in any large numbers. Eastern Europe is awash in guns after the fall of the USSR and their revolutions. Folks there aren't likely to give them up, either. Europe isn't the gun wasteland some would have you believe. It's just like California or New York in many cases.

 

[tv1217]

I've always heard that the Czech Republic is the closest to the US in gun laws and it's possible to get a cc license with not much effort.

 

[singlestacksig]

attics, buried in yards... hidden in trees..
about 10 years ago a guy bought an old farm and found a 40mm Flak gun in top loft..

I friend of mine was in the Bosnian war, and he said when the USSR fell people started digging up their fields and they had even hid whole tanks..

 

[Sylvain]

They are NOT in the attic ...

 

[Sylvain]

I think that many Europeans live in countries where gun ownership is restricted, but not outlawed. Many of them legally own guns, just like we do here. Just not as many of them as us. And their heavily regulated. Are there war trophies in basements and attics? Quite likely in places like France, (I remember an article on the subject from a few years ago, but nothing specific other than rumours that lots of trophies existed in basements), but not in any large numbers. Eastern Europe is awash in guns after the fall of the USSR and their revolutions. Folks there aren't likely to give them up, either. Europe isn't the gun wasteland some would have you believe. It's just like California or New York in many cases.

Yep, in France alone there are millions of gun owners, most home owners I know are also gun owners.
That's just in legal guns owned for hunting and sport shooting, im not even talking about all the military weapons illegally owned.

 

[Sylvain]

Kinda was thinking aloud about this. When you have total war TWICE in your front yard within thirty years of each other, is it too much to assume there are many full-auto goodies, bolt action rifles, handguns, explosives, and artillery hanging out in basements, attics, unused closets, deserted barns, and the like? I'd think there are quite a few weapons hanging out in Europe hidden away in homes, or even purposely buried. What do you guys think?

Tried some google-fu and can't find anything to validate my thoughts on the matter

Most people dont post pictures of all their illegal full auto rifles on Facebook for some weird reason, I believe the police can do Google searches too.

 

[Mosinguy]

Most people dont post pictures of all their illegal full auto rifles on Facebook for some weird reason, I believe the police can do Google searches too.

No I meant news articles about the subject

 

[mrjarrell]

No I meant news articles about the subject

They also don't talk to reporters about them.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Mosin, what do you want to know? Smuggling in Western Europe? Guns of the IRA? Smuggling routes in the low countries? Movement of arms after the collapse of the DDR? Guns of Albania?

The black market for arms is enormous. Are you looking to learn about a particular segment?

Are you looking for books about gun smuggling in Europe?

Start here: Gunrunning in the former Yugoslavia and from the USA:

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Afraid-Have-Sons-America/dp/0312285582

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If you want to know more about international arms trade, get to know the players. It is a fascinating study. Let me know what questions you have.

FRONTLINE/WORLD . Sierra Leone - Gunrunners . Gallery of International Arms Dealers | PBS

 

[Sylvain]

Im back from my yard, no guns hidden in trees.
INGO was wrong once again!

 

[mcolford]

Really good chance. The Germans were also fond of using lakes as hiding places.

I thought only all of us careless owners on INGO kept our guns in the bottom of the lake...

I know what you are saying though... I always pray that when the day comes that I go through my attic entirely I find something uber cool. I imagine there are some pretty amazing firearms in some odd places throughout the region..

 

[blamecharles]

Im back from my yard, no guns hidden in trees.
INGO was wrong once again!

That's because I got there first, unfortunately i had a boating accident on the way home.

 

[Mosinguy]

Mosin, what do you want to know? Smuggling in Western Europe? Guns of the IRA? Smuggling routes in the low countries? Movement of arms after the collapse of the DDR? Guns of Albania?

The black market for arms is enormous. Are you looking to learn about a particular segment?

Are you looking for books about gun smuggling in Europe?

Start here: Gunrunning in the former Yugoslavia and from the USA:

Be Not Afraid,for You Have Sons in America: How a Brooklyn Roofer Helped Lure the U.S. into the Kosovo War: Stacy Sullivan: 9780312285586: Amazon.com: Books

If you want to know more about international arms trade, get to know the players. It is a fascinating study. Let me know what questions you have.

FRONTLINE/WORLD . Sierra Leone - Gunrunners . Gallery of International Arms Dealers | PBS

This is sorta what I'm talking about. I'm really talking about the WWI and WWII era weapons people happened to find laying around and just kept them. And then I'm wondering how "illegal" guns end up from one end of the globe to a little hole-in-the-wall pub in London or whatever. I do know Eastern European truck drivers will stash Makarovs and the like in spare tires to deliver them relatively safely.

 

[Sylvain]

You mostly have two kinds of guns in Europe (like almost anywhere else), the legal ones and the illegal ones.

You have millions of legal ones that dont need to be hidden in attics, in most countries in Europe it's legal to own all types of guns (shotguns and rifles for hungting, pistols for sport shooting and such).
Mostly all the gun that you can legally own in the US.

Many restrictions on full-autos and in some countries on military calibers (like 9X19mm in Italy.)
In some countries like Switzerland it's legal to own modern full auto guns with the proper licence (Glock 18 and such).

So that alone represents millions of firearms (32 LEGAL firarms for 100 inhabitants in France).

Then you have the illegal guns of course, that's also a few millions of guns.

You have all the ones left from the two world wars that people just found and kept.
Many were taken from German soldiers during the war or found just after the war, so almost new.
They have been in the family of the person who found/took it for generations and kept as a war trophy.

Some can still be found today after having been burried for 60 years next to their original owner.Those are mainly rusty but some people can bring them back to life with a bit of knowledge.

You also have all the more modern weapons that mainly come from the Balkans.
From full auto AKs to anti-tank weapons.
Those weapons are available to anyone, either gun owner who also own legal weapons or criminals who used them on armored trucks or against the police.
In 2011 over 4000 of those illegal guns where seized by the police, in France alone.
So you can imagine how many of them were not seized, not to mention the ones that keep getting in the country each year, without ever leaving.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm really talking about the WWI and WWII era weapons people happened to find laying around and just kept them.

You mean like the movie Come and See where the kids dig up an SVT-40?

Impossible to calculate. They exist. Heck every year people dig up guns in France and the Low Countries. Did you see the video of the Stg44 being dug up in Holland that I posted?

An enormous amount of firearms were produced during WWII (there were something like 11 million Mauser 98ks made). Many were destroyed in the war, some come back with Americans, some were bought and sold by weight by people like Sam Cummings and sold to other nations (Cummings got his start with the 100K SMGs to Finland), some were stored.

I went to grad school with refusniks. One of whom somehow survived dedushka (basic training, it means "grandfather") as a Jew and was then assigned a labor battalion in the Urals. He did nothing but grease guns from WWII (all nations, German, Italian, Romanian, Russian) up and put them in boxes, all day.

Imagine warehouse after warehouse all full of WWII firearms (NKVD had special units tasked to pick up guns after battles). This is why Clinton gave away all that gold in the VRA of '96. There would have been freighters full of guns coming into the USA. Lugers would have been $10 a pop.

And then I'm wondering how "illegal" guns end up from one end of the globe to a little hole-in-the-wall pub in London or whatever.

They follow and ride along the drug routes.

 

[Sylvain]

That what a trip to the "gun store" looks like around here.

"Oh, another MG42 honey! Put it in the Volvo im gonna look for the bipod."

 

[Mosinguy]

That what a trip to the "gun store" looks like around here.

"Oh, another MG42 honey! Put it in the Volvo im gonna look for the bipod."