How "common" is the 1/2 moa Ar15?

[shawnba67]

Was wondering if there is anything special about an AR that does sub moa frequently, with several brands of ammo? Are these getting to be run of the mill? Or are they still rather elusive? Trying to decide if my dpms is special or not?

 

[nipprdog]

Was wondering if there is anything special about an AR that does sub moa frequently, with several brands of ammo? Are these getting to be run of the mill? Or are they still rather elusive? Trying to decide if my dpms is special or not?

Define sub moa.

 

[shibumiseeker]

If you mean that the gun will shoot honest 5 shot 1/2" groups measured center to center at 100 yards every single time a group is shot then there are very, very few ARs that are capable of that and far fewer shooters that are capable of it. Especially with ammo that has not been tuned for that particular gun.

Now, if you are talking about an occasional 3 shot group with those same measurements, then there are many that can do it, but it's not a realistic measurement of a gun's accuracy since statistically speaking 3 shot groups are essentially meaningless, and random chance means that most guns can shoot an occasional tight 3 shot group.

If you are asking me to believe it then I'm going to need to see proof.

 

[Manatee]

Especially out of a DPMS.

 

[42769vette]

If you mean that the gun will shoot honest 5 shot 1/2" groups measured center to center at 100 yards every single time a group is shot then there are very, very few ARs that are capable of that and far fewer shooters that are capable of it. Especially with ammo that has not been tuned for that particular gun.

Now, if you are talking about an occasional 3 shot group with those same measurements, then there are many that can do it, but it's not a realistic measurement of a gun's accuracy since statistically speaking 3 shot groups are essentially meaningless, and random chance means that most guns can shoot an occasional tight 3 shot group.

If you are asking me to believe it then I'm going to need to see proof.

Very well put

My most accurate ar is built on seekins upper and lower, Geissele trigger, Loki barrel. I dont shoot groups often, but when I do they are 5-10 round groups. It will do right at MOA every time.

 

[Mr. Habib]

1/2 MOA consistently with a variety of ammo will be pretty rare. I have personally seen, and shot, 2 that would shoot sub 3/4 MOA @ 100yds for 10 shots groups, with more than one load and with 3 different shooters. I've never personally seen one consistently better than 1/2 for 10 shots, but I'm sure they exist.

 

[shawnba67]

Define sub moa.

It defines itself doesn't it?
Mine has done 5 shot's under 2'' @200 yds with frequency. Handload best group was .62@200 Thought my scope had been knocked off I couldn't see the holes inside the inch orange dot I was shooting at. Edit for 223 caliber. Bone stock DPMS EOP the wierd one with a raised flattop section for scope clearance and a 20'' bull barrel.

 

[sloughfoot]

All it takes is a good barrel and ammo and a shooter that can hold that hard. But 10 shot groups are the best test for all three.

I get a little tired of hearing the dpms bashing on these forums. It is a good rifle. It always has been.

 

[rvb]

I recently built my dad an AR with bench shooting in mind. I have more in the barrel (Lilja) and trigger (Geisselle match) than many do in the whole rifle (about $850). He put a 24x vortex on top. He's just starting loading for it (components so hard to come by) but he is getting consistent 3/4moa 5-shot groups with it.... Usually 4 shots in the 3/8 range and a flyer.... He's pretty sure the flyer is him not being consistent (not calling a good shot). I'm confident when he finds the right load combo and gets a little more familiar/consistent with shooting the thing it will be a 3/8-1/2" gun.... But that gives you an idea what it takes if that's your goal.

-rvb

 

[RobbyMaQ]

I have a 'run o the mill' nothing fancy DS Arms. On my first KD appleseed, I was having issues with my (self induced) intro to using a scope.
YHJ got me sighted back in at 25yd during lunch, and when we got back to the line at 300 yards, I started from scratch with a sighter group. I shot a 1.5" group (3 rounds), considered sub-moa being under 3".
I think most guns are more accurate than the fingers pressing the triggers.

 

[42769vette]

It defines itself doesn't it?

You would think, but remember this is the internet. I cant tell you how many posts Ive seen about "My rifle is sub 1/2 moa" and they show a 3 shot group, with a "Flier". That doesnt meen its sub moa in the real world, that means you landed 2 beside each other.

 

[shibumiseeker]

It defines itself doesn't it?

Yes, but a lot of people don't know the definition or use it wrong.

Mine has done 5 shot's under 2'' @200 yds with frequency. Handload best group was .62@200 Thought my scope had been knocked off I couldn't see the holes inside the inch orange dot I was shooting at. Edit for 223 caliber. Bone stock DPMS EOP the wierd one with a raised flattop section for scope clearance and a 20'' bull barrel.

There's a LONG way between just under MOA and 1/2 MOA. Lots of ARs are capable of just sub-MOA, but it's the rare one that is truly 1/2 MOA or better. And don't fall into the trap of making the distinction with a gun that HAS shot an occasional very tight group and one that can do it almost every time. If yours can, great! It's not common though. DPMS gets bashed a lot, but my experience with them has been pretty positive.

I have a .308 that I shoot at the same targets at 200 and 400 yards (I have my own range) because I have shot so many times I have worn nearly round holes in them that are right at .6MOA. They each have approximately 100 rounds through them. There are maybe 3-4 holes on each just outside of the central hole. To that end I am pretty comfortable saying that with that gun and the ammo I load for it, on a calm day, it and I are a .6MOA shooter. I know I have shot tighter 5 shot groups with it, but I can't do it almost every time.

 

[shawnba67]

OK fella's thanks. Have been trying to decide whether or not I had an above average shooter. I will get a cheap upper for my plinking work, hate to burn out a good one just going bang. Save it for something more, maybe Yote's.

 

[42769vette]

OK fella's thanks. Have been trying to decide whether or not I had an above average shooter. I will get a cheap upper for my plinking work, hate to burn out a good one just going bang. Save it for something more, maybe Yote's.

Its going to take thousands of rounds before its burn out.

 

[grunt soldier]

OK fella's thanks. Have been trying to decide whether or not I had an above average shooter. I will get a cheap upper for my plinking work, hate to burn out a good one just going bang. Save it for something more, maybe Yote's.

I hate to say it but what else is it for. guns are made to be shot regardless of sub moa or not. would be silly imo to put it in the safe because your afraid to burn it up. most barrels with good ammo will shoot thousands upon thousands of rounds before you have to worry about that. In MlARM and SDM in the military we shot about 500 plus rounds a day, close to 10k by the end of training. SDM is about a 2 week coarse they probably run close to 20 classes or so through a year and they only re-barrel 2 times a year. Do you have any pictures of your 200 yard groups?

 

[Sonney]

I shoot 223 and 5.56 in my AR my mechanical stops are set for the 223 and I dial down for 5.56 I think if you change ammo you also change point of impact. My Windham shoots better than the shooter.


Sonney

 

[shooter521]

I think all the "sub 1/2 MOA" ARs live on the internet and in gun shops, just like the SKS that can shoot dime-size groups at 100 yards.

 

[x10]

I think all the "sub 1/2 MOA" ARs live on the internet and in gun shops, just like the SKS that can shoot dime-size groups at 100 yards.

I have been associated with HHRP for over 25 years and I have seen a bunch of shooters and a bunch of rifles and I see people all the time that will shoot 20 rounds and measure 3 of the 20 and call it a shooter.

I don't know how anyone even shoots a good group with factory ammo, there are very few factory rounds that are the same year to year. Of course there are a few standard rounds that shoot well but I see someone show up the range with 3-4 brands and or bullet weights and end up moving the scope all the time they are shooting.

Plus the concentration and trigger control that it takes to shoot that well is hard to come by. When I was in my shooting prime I could get into the zone and do the job but even then I would have to lay off caffeine and basically have a good mental attitude.

I have handed good shooting rifles with sub moa ammo to guys who say they are experienced good shooters and they shoot 4 inch groups at 100 and claim something is wrong with the ammo or gun. I've also sat down with the same rifle and ammo right after that and shot good groups.

If you want to learn to shoot you just about have to start shooting matches. The day at the range by yourself doesn't give you a good sense of what you and the rifle can do.

You need someone to push you (unless your that rare person), When the time starts and the time ends then you know how you shoot.

 

[edporch]

A sub MOA AR must be possible!
I know a guy who says he shot a specially tuned M1 Garand that he was able to put EVERY shot through the same hole at 400 yards!

 

[42769vette]

I know a guy who says he shot a specially tuned M1 Garand that he was able to put EVERY shot through the same hole at 400 yards!

I talk to a lot of those guys at gun shows. Did you know 95% of the people who attend the 1500 are ex special forces, or private security contractors.