Guilty or Not Guilty?

[GuyRelford]

Big Bill is a convicted "serious violent felon" and can't quite stay out of trouble with the law - although he's trying. One night his friend Lucky (who is still a minor) asks Big Bill if he wants to go out for a few beers and "cause a little hell." Big Bill says sure, and volunteers to drive. He later picks up Lucky and Lucky's girlfriend in Big Bill's Jeep. Lucky and his girlfriend pile into the back seat and immediately ask if Bill would mind stopping at the closest liquor store, "Brews are Us," for some beer.

Bill has to make a u-turn to get into the parking lot at Brews are Us, which attracts the attention of Officer Jones. Officer Jones also pulls into the parking lot, hits the lights, and approaches the vehicle from the passenger side. He immediately sees the butt of a firearm sticking out from behind the front passenger seat, immediately in front of Lucky. He calls for back-up, extracts all of the occupants from the vehicle and discovers that the firearm he noticed is in fact a pistol-gripped Mossburg 500 12 ga. that has been sawed-off to have only a 12 inch barrel.

When asked by police about any firearms in the vehicle, Big Bill said, "I don't know anything about the 12 guage." The sawed-off shotgun is the only firearm found in the car.

Lucky is arrested and prosecuted as a delinquent juvenile for his possession of a sawed-off shotgun.

Big Bill is also arrested for Unlawful Possession of a Firearm by a Serious Violent Felon, Dealing in a Sawed-Off Shotgun, and Carrying a Handgun without a License.

In his juvenile proceedings, Lucky admitted that he owned the shotgun and brought it into Big Bill's Jeep without Bill's permission, and he is adjudicated a delinquent child on that basis.

Will Big Bill also be convicted of any crime(s), and if so, what?

Guy

 

[ikky68]

Wait a minute... Aren't you the attorney of the forums? I'd say that the officer (in your scenario) had no reason/probable cause to pull them over or stop Big Bill.

 

[red_zr24x4]

Wait a minute... Aren't you the attorney of the forums? I'd say that the officer (in your scenario) had no reason/probable cause to pull them over or stop Big Bill.

Big Bill is a convicted "serious violent felon" and can't quite stay out of trouble with the law - although he's trying. One night his friend Lucky (who is still a minor) asks Big Bill if wants to go out for a few beers and "cause a little hell." Big Bill says sure, and volunteers to drive. He later picks up Lucky and Lucky's girlfriend in Big Bill's Jeep. Lucky and his girlfriend pile into the back seat and immediately ask if Bill would mind stopping at the closest liquor store, "Brews are Us," for some beer.

Bill has to make a u-turn to get into the parking lot at Brews are Us, which attracts the attention of Officer Jones. Officer Jones also pulls into the parking lot, hits the lights, and approaches the vehicle from the passenger side. He immediately sees the butt of firearm sticking out from behind the front passenger seat, immediately in front of Lucky. He calls for back-up, extracts all of the occupants from the vehicle and discovers that the firearm he noticed is in fact a pistol-gripped Mossburg 500 12 ga. that has been sawed-off to have only a 12 inch barrel.

When asked by police about any firearms in the vehicle, Big Bill said, "I don't know anything about the 12 guage." The sawed-off shotgun is the only firearm found in the car.

Lucky is arrested and prosecuted as a delinquent juvenile for his possession of a sawed-off shotgun.

Big Bill is also arrested for Unlawful Possession of a Firearm by a Serious Violent Felon, Dealing in a Sawed-Off Shotgun, and Carrying a Handgun without a License.

In his juvenile proceedings, Lucky admitted that he owned the shotgun and brought it into Big Bill's Jeep without Bill's permission, and he is adjudicated a delinquent child on that basis.

Will Big Bill also be convicted of any crime(s), and if so, what?

Guy

I think Bill would get a traffic citation for the U-turn, possibly something for the delinquency of a minor and possible a common nuisance charge

 

[Double T]

Is lucky's gfa minor also? If so what's his/her BAC?

If they have any alcohol he's getting charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor...maybe.

I have made a few observations.

1) the officer followed them into a lot where I assume the car was parked
2) flipped the lightbar on
3) proceeded to the passenger side of the car
4) immediately called for backup
5) removed the firearm

My major problem with ALL of this is that at no point was it ever confirmed that the officer confirmed ID or asked if anyone held a license to carry.

I understand the gun is illegal on all counts, but it was also found in an inappropriate stop.

I think all charges should be dropped if it happened as I understand it. Walk to the drivers' window.

 

[TTravis]

If the U turn was not illegal then there was no probable cause and the case is over. Pulling into a liquor store with under age minors in the car is not illegal and not probable cause either.

If there was probable cause then the prosecutor would have to establish that Bill had knowledge of and was in possession of the firearm. It would be hard to believe that he did not but still possible. Would it make sense to check the firearm for Bill's prints. Also, If Bill was in so much trouble before, he is probably on probation and therefore not allowed to be at a liquor store.

Bill is definitely guilty of making bad choices but I don't think they can pin the shotgun on him. If the alcohol was not opened, Bill can claim sole possession of it without disclosing his intentions to share it.

IAMAL but I think Bill should get a good one.

 

[mainjet]

Big Bill will be released with a ticket for the U Turn.

The minor admitted the gun was his and BB did not know about it. That releases BB from all crimes connected to the gun. BB Had not purchased beer yet for the minors so he got lucky there (pun intended).

 

[GuyRelford]

If the U turn was not illegal then there was no probable cause and the case is over. Pulling into a liquor store with under age minors in the car is not illegal and not probable cause either.

If there was probable cause then the prosecutor would have to establish that Bill had knowledge of and was in possession of the firearm. It would be hard to believe that he did not but still possible. Would it make sense to check the firearm for Bill's prints. Also, If Bill was in so much trouble before, he is probably on probation and therefore not allowed to be at a liquor store.

Bill is definitely guilty of making bad choices but I don't think they can pin the shotgun on him. If the alcohol was not opened, Bill can claim sole possession of it without disclosing his intentions to share it.

IAMAL but I think Bill should get a good one.

Valid question. Let's assume that the u-turn was illegal so there is no issue with probable cause. That was my intent in the scenario.

Guy

 

[NIFT]

In Coley v. State of Indiana, the court said, "Pursuant to Indiana Code section 35-47-4-5, to convict Coley of possession of a firearm by a serious violent felon, the State was required to prove that he: (1) knowingly or intentionally possessed a firearm, and (2) that he had been convicted of a "serious violent felony," which includes Class C felony escape, a crime for which Coley has previously been convicted."

Based on that, it appears Bill's fate depends on whether the jury--or judge, if a bench trial--believes that Bill really did not know the gun was in the car. Tough sell, in my opinion.


SODDI: Some Other Dude Did It.
TODDI: That Other Dude Did It.
TAMD: Those Aren't My Drugs (or guns, or...).

 

[littletommy]

How did he know about a 12 ga. in the vehicle when asked about weapons? Did the cop ask him about the 12 ga before he denied knowledge of it? The way it's worded, sounds like he screwed himself.

 

[Bunnykid68]

How did he know about a 12 ga. in the vehicle when asked about weapons? Did the cop ask him about the 12 ga before he denied knowledge of it? The way it's worded, sounds like he screwed himself.

You misread it,

When asked by police about any firearms in the vehicle, Big Bill said, "I don't know anything about the 12 guage." The sawed-off shotgun is the only firearm found in the car.

 

[bigcraig]

Guilty.

 

[mrjarrell]

I think they're going to take Big Bill just 'cause they can. He's a persistent felon in their eyes. Can't see where they let him off, despite the truth of the matter.

 

[stephen87]

I'm with littletommy on this one.

If the officer asked about firearms and his reply was specific, he's lying and will be found guilty. On the other hand, if the officer mentioned the sawed off 12 gauge and he said he didn't know about it, then it's on whether the officer believes him.

Can I get how the officer worded it please?






My views are:
1. What was discussed above.
2. Did not buy any liquor, therefore cannot be charged with contributing to minor consumption unless he says that he was going to.
3. Cannot be charged with any alcohol related offenses because of the fact he did not have any liquor.
4. IANAL, but I believe the discussion should have stopped with BB about the shotgun after Lucky admitted to owning, carrying, and putting the shotgun in the vehicle without Bill's knowledge.
5. Ticket for the illegal u-turn and a stern warning about he'd better pick a better crowd to hang out with.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

The most obvious thing here is that Bill purchased alcoholic beverages for Lucky and his girlfriend.

Bill's charge would be Furnishing Alcohol to a Minor. I should think that the felon with a firearm charge would be arguable in court, especially so if Lucky fessed up to bringing into the vehicle without Bill's knowledge. Bill still is responsible for everything and everyone in the vehicle, however, Bill may escape the felon with the firearm charge in court.

 

[GuyRelford]

I'm with littletommy on this one.

If the officer asked about firearms and his reply was specific, he's lying and will be found guilty. On the other hand, if the officer mentioned the sawed off 12 gauge and he said he didn't know about it, then it's on whether the officer believes him.

Can I get how the officer worded it please?






My views are:
1. What was discussed above.
2. Did not buy any liquor, therefore cannot be charged with contributing to minor consumption unless he says that he was going to.
3. Cannot be charged with any alcohol related offenses because of the fact he did not have any liquor.
4. IANAL, but I believe the discussion should have stopped with BB about the shotgun after Lucky admitted to owning, carrying, and putting the shotgun in the vehicle without Bill's knowledge.
5. Ticket for the illegal u-turn and a stern warning about he'd better pick a better crowd to hang out with.

Entire conversation, which took place in the back of the officer's car:

Officer: "So tell me about any firearms in your vehicle."
Big Bill: "I don't know nothin' about that damn 12-guage. That's not mine."

 

[GuyRelford]

The most obvious thing here is that Bill purchased alcoholic beverages for Lucky and his girlfriend.

No, Big Bill and Lucky were arrested in the parking lot before anyone went into the "Brews Are Us."

 

[stephen87]

Entire conversation, which took place in the back of the officer's car:

Officer: "So tell me about any firearms in your vehicle."
Big Bill: "I don't know nothin' about that damn 12-guage. That's not mine."

Self incrimination, no doubt about it. Hanged himself. Guilty.

/discussion

 

[NIFT]

Entire conversation, which took place in the back of the officer's car:

Officer: "So tell me about any firearms in your vehicle."
Big Bill: "I don't know nothin' about that damn 12-guage. That's not mine."

Ah, that changes everything if the cops didn't say or do anything to let Bill know there was a shotgun in the car. He be goin' back to the joint!

However, there may be a double jeopardy issue with the shotgun-handgun charges, which could result in his not being convicted on all charges.

 

[mainjet]

Entire conversation, which took place in the back of the officer's car:

Officer: "So tell me about any firearms in your vehicle."
Big Bill: "I don't know nothin' about that damn 12-guage. That's not mine."

BB could have seen the LEO pull the shotgun from the car while he was sitting in the back of the Police car.

If lucky admitted to the gun and that he did not tell BB that he had it then the prosecutor is going to have a hard time PROVING that BB had knowledge of it. It also could be argued that it was not within his immediate reach and was found by in the immediate reach of the one who admitted it was his.

I don't see anything that can really pin on BB on this one.

Never talk to the cops without a lawyer. This becomes very clear with one sentence "I don't know nothin' about that damn 12-guage"...

 

[GuyRelford]

Ah, that changes everything if the cops didn't say or do anything to let Bill know there was a shotgun in the car. He be goin' back to the joint!.

But Lucky admitted that the shotgun was his. Can two people "possess" a firearm in a vehicle at the same time?

However, there may be a double jeopardy issue with the shotgun-handgun charges, which could result in his not being convicted on all charges.

You are a very wise man.