For those wary about OC

[Bunnykid68]

If I am attacked and I am CC you can damn well be sure the attacker will be surprised when he gets shot by my defensive use of a handgun. Just sayin.

 

[iChokePeople]

How do you visualize a mugging going down. The BG at 30 feet away, making threats? The point here is that by OCing, you deter the majority of attackers. Most criminals want a quick buck, not a fight or a murder charge. If someone is right up on you with a knife to your neck, drawing from concealment will likely worsen that scenario. Someone who wants a compliant victim will not choose a man with a gun.

The people that will attack an OCer are rare. If you feel better CCing, that's fine. I prefer to stop the threat before it becomes a real life physical threat. If you think it's better to stop the threat once you're on your back getting your head smashed in by using surprise tactics, that's fine, too.

You're still failing to mention how surprise is defensive. Luring someone to attack you, so you can attack them, is still offensive. Also, if you think it is better to lure someone to attack you than deter them from attacking you, you may want to rethink that.

It would be like having a "No Guns" sign on a business, when in reality, all the employees are armed. It will be robbed, but you can surprise the robber with your guns, which may lead to a shoot out.

OR, you could put up an "Armed Personnel on the Premises" sign. That would deter most criminals.

Why wait until the threat is physical, and poses danger to you, to act?

Everyone can see I'm armed. Everyone who would victimize me will have to weigh that into their equation. Do you risk your life to find out how much cash I'm carrying?

Let's not shift the argument -- I never said a word disparaging the idea of OC as a deterrent. I buy into the idea that OC will deter many attacks. Go back and read it all again and find where I said that. Waiting.

 

[iChokePeople]

A defender defending or counterattacking, while possibly unanticipated, shouldn't be regarded as anything beyond gross underestimation on the part of the attacker if it catches them off guard.

If an attacker is "surprised" by their victim fighting back, it's not generally because the victim employed some advantage of concealment, it's more likely because the attacker became complacent and negligent in his "job", most likely from feasting on too many sheep.

I think you're splitting hairs on the definition of "surprise", but let's shift it just a little, then: what if it's a concerned third party who "interrupts the assault by means of unexpected interference in the activity"?

 

[ATM]

If I am attacked and I am CC you can damn well be sure the attacker will be surprised when he gets shot by my defensive use of a handgun. Just sayin.

Only if your attacker assumed you had neither the means nor the will to attempt to stop him, which is why he'd select you in the first place.

But making such assumptions would certainly cut his career (if not his life) short, so the odds of getting such a stooge as the one who attacks you are pretty negligible.

 

[Classic Liberal]

If I am attacked and I am CC you can damn well be sure the attacker will be surprised when he gets shot by my defensive use of a handgun. Just sayin.

If I attack you, you won't have any brains left to use any defensive measures...just saying.

 

[ATM]

I think you're splitting hairs on the definition of "surprise", but let's shift it just a little, then: what if it's a concerned third party who "interrupts the assault by means of unexpected interference in the activity"?

If the third party jumped out of a trap door in the ceiling or was hiding in a nearby shrubbery, yes, that would strike me as something of a surprise.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Let's not shift the argument -- I never said a word disparaging the idea of OC as a deterrent. I buy into the idea that OC will deter many attacks. Go back and read it all again and find where I said that. Waiting.

I disparage the use of OC as a deterrent.

Just messing, of course. So I got a little off track. My point is that surprise is not defensive. I should also note that luring an enemy to attack you is reckless and irresponsible.

 

[griffin]

If you think it's better to stop the threat once you're on your back getting your head smashed in by using surprise tactics, that's fine, too.

I see what you did there.

 

[KG1]

If the third party jumped out of a trap door in the ceiling or was hiding in a nearby shrubbery, yes, that would strike me as something of a surprise.

Hey, It could happen...

 

[CPT Nervous]

If the third party jumped out of a trap door in the ceiling or was hiding in a nearby shrubbery, yes, that would strike me as something of a surprise.

 

[iChokePeople]

Just messing, of course. So I got a little off track. My point is that surprise is not defensive. I should also note that luring an enemy to attack you is reckless and irresponsible.

Custer gives you a hearty thumbs up. Or would, if he were alive.

History is full of great examples of commanders who chose to defend at a particular time or place and "lured" (by various names) their enemy into an ill-conceived attack. It's a very common, very sound choice.

To call myself on the same carpet, though, this has no more to do with the OC argument than the initial statement about soldiers and ambushes.

 

[griffin]

Some quotes that come to mind:

We're surrounded. That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them.

They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can't get away from us now!

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Are you volunteering me?

Why don't we just do an OC post office visit. Get like 15 OCers to go mail a letter. See what happens...

You already volunteered yourself when you admitted on a public forum that you carry a firearm into postal offices and will continue to do so. I never throw people under the bus!

No thanks on the second part, one lawsuit/court case at a time for OCing is enough for me. Talk to me after December

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I don't think this is the one that I remember but it could be. It involves a postal worker in a post office parking lot. But he was charged under the regulation being discussed. He didn't use an "official business" argument, but a 2nd amendment one. He lost.
FindACase™ | United States v. Dorosan

Well THAT was a depressing read. Thanks for posting it.

Why is it that so many of us lowly peons can see the 2A for what it truly is yet highly educated law professionals like these "judges" are so willfully ignorant and go to such great lengths to trample liberty?

 

[LanceRobbins24]

You already volunteered yourself when you admitted on a public forum that you carry a firearm into postal offices and will continue to do so. I never throw people under the bus!

No thanks on the second part, one lawsuit/court case at a time for OCing is enough for me. Talk to me after December

talk to him while he and Mrs frosty are vacationing in a tropical location after December on Evansvilles dime....FIFY

 

[CPT Nervous]

Well, they certainly can't arrest all of us. Can they?


What if 100 OCing INGOers lined up at a USPS office? Buying stamps, mailing packages. Whatever. What do you think they'd do?

 

[griffin]

Well THAT was a depressing read. Thanks for posting it.

Why is it that so many of us lowly peons can see the 2A for what it truly is yet highly educated law professionals like these "judges" are so willfully ignorant and go to such great lengths to trample liberty?

I had a post earlier in this thread that I deleted because it didn't apply to the point being discussed. But as far as this case, this employee was carrying his firearm onto the fenced, restricted, employee parking lot.

There is another case, Bonidy, where a couple are suing the USPS for lawful citizen carry on USPS property. Several motions to dismiss from the government have already been denied and the case is going forward.

MSLF -- Legal Cases
Colorado couple's lawsuit over post office gun ban is allowed to proceed - The Denver Post
Colorado Couple Sues U.S. Post Office Over Gun Ban « CBS Denver

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I had a post earlier in this thread that I deleted because it didn't apply to the point being discussed. But as far as this case, this employee was carrying his firearm onto the fenced, restricted, employee parking lot.

There is another case, Bonidy, where a couple are suing the USPS for lawful citizen carry on USPS property. Several motions to dismiss from the government have already been denied and the case is going forward.

MSLF -- Legal Cases
Colorado couple's lawsuit over post office gun ban is allowed to proceed - The Denver Post
Colorado Couple Sues U.S. Post Office Over Gun Ban « CBS Denver

I remember that. Glad it is progressing well.

 

[nomadicmutt]

Well, they certainly can't arrest all of us. Can they?


What if 100 OCing INGOers lined up at a USPS office? Buying stamps, mailing packages. Whatever. What do you think they'd do?

Riot police, attack dogs, and cattle prods, for sure.

Not that it makes any sense, tactically, but scary things must be met with an amount of force that looks cool on tv.

 

[ehoward]

I personally just prefer to OC. I don't really care what other people think, I'm not waiving it around, and not bothering them.

I mind my own business, they should stay the hell outta mine.