"fighting words" and appropriate response

[Jack Burton]

An issue of importance to those who carry is when we are allowed to use the gun for self defense. The doctrine of "fighting words" has always been controversial and here is a recent court ruling on an aspect of it.

The Volokh Conspiracy » Fighting Words

 

[jbombelli]

Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Laugh and point, and the world wants to beat your ***.

 

[jerryv]

The idea of any kind of retaliation, other than words, to what someone says in any context seems primitive .. ie. uncivilized. People say all kinds of stupid crap all the time, and I'm left irritated frequently. But we all have the right to our opinions, and though I might disagree, I 'respect' the right to have those opinions. So we can argue, we can debate, or we can ignore/avoid each other .. but any retaliation beyond words is like bringing a tank to a knife fight .. Dialogue is about more than 'winning' ..

 

[Kirk Freeman]

"Don't wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it."

Kirk's Grandpa.

"Don't wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it. You'll go to jail and lose your LTCH."

Kirk

 

[eldirector]

This whole concept just seems so juvenile to me. What on God's green earth can you say to me, other than an actual threat (e.g.: "I'm going to kill you"), that would FORCE me to become physically violent?

If someone mouth's off, even in your face, just let it go.....

 

[actaeon277]

This whole concept just seems so juvenile to me. What on God's green earth can you say to me, other than an actual threat (e.g.: "I'm going to kill you"), that would FORCE me to become physically violent?

If someone mouth's off, even in your face, just let it go.....

Fighting word have to do with what the average man on the street would deem necessary to start a fight. Not what one man deems.
What if a daughters ex-boyfriend that was deemed by the courts as innocent of raping her decides to start yelling in a loud voice how he did it? Maybe gets into in depth descriptions.

You don't think that might incite you to anger and action?

 

[eldirector]

Fighting word have to do with what the average man on the street would deem necessary to start a fight. Not what one man deems.
What if a daughters ex-boyfriend that was deemed by the courts as innocent of raping her decides to start yelling in a loud voice how he did it? Maybe gets into in depth descriptions.

You don't think that might incite you to anger and action?

Oh, I'm sure it would. But would "fighting words" be a valid defense against me assaulting the ex-boyfriend? Just because I WANT to lash out, doesn't suddenly make it the right thing to do.

Besides, there are much better ways to even the score. The limp, scarring, and inability to ever father a child, all courtesy of my daughter's aim being a little low during the *attempted* rape, would be a constant reminder.

 

[jbombelli]

Oh, I'm sure it would. But would "fighting words" be a valid defense against me assaulting the ex-boyfriend? Just because I WANT to lash out, doesn't suddenly make it the right thing to do.

Besides, there are much better ways to even the score. The limp, scarring, and inability to ever father a child, all courtesy of my daughter's aim being a little low during the *attempted* rape, would be a constant reminder.

Not to my knowledge. But it WOULD make sure THEY got charged with something, too.

IC 35-42-2-3
Provocation
Sec. 3. A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable man to commit battery commits provocation, a Class C infraction.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

The fighting words concept is an example of the law not following changes in society closely enough. When I was young (yes, THAT long ago) people would put their hands on other people often, with no expectation of it reaching deadly levels. Grown men would fight like schoolboys and when one was humiliated the other would be declared the winner and buy beers all 'round. It was as if there was a universal understanding that you were not to hurt anybody seriously and that you knew you would not be injured either.. A punch or two between adults was nothing but Men behaving badly. for a fight to become a killing was news worthy indeed and it always turned out that there were deeper reasons involved if a person was injured seriously.

Now-days are quite different. Seemingly minor irritations commonly blow up into a hail of bullets. and it doesn't take much to find yourself in a real bind. Our society has changed and today the thought of just taking a punch and letting it go is unheard of. We can't afford to legitimize the idea of "Fighting words" in the twenty first century. Letting words become violence is no longer safe in this culture, violence too quickly becomes death now-days.

 

[jbombelli]

The fighting words concept is an example of the law not following changes in society closely enough. When I was young (yes, THAT long ago) people would put their hands on other people often, with no expectation of it reaching deadly levels. Grown men would fight like schoolboys and when one was humiliated the other would be declared the winner and buy beers all 'round. It was as if there was a universal understanding that you were not to hurt anybody seriously and that you knew you would not be injured either.. A punch or two between adults was nothing but Men behaving badly. for a fight to become a killing was news worthy indeed and it always turned out that there were deeper reasons involved if a person was injured seriously.

Now-days are quite different. Seemingly minor irritations commonly blow up into a hail of bullets. and it doesn't take much to find yourself in a real bind. Our society has changed and today the thought of just taking a punch and letting it go is unheard of. We can't afford to legitimize the idea of "Fighting words" in the twenty first century. Letting words become violence is no longer safe in this culture, violence too quickly becomes death now-days.

Do you want to know why we can't just "take a punch" anymore? Let me explain. You see, once upon a time the world was covered with nice, soft grass and dirt. If you took a punch to the face and fell down, and hit your head, it would be no big deal. You could get up with some dirt on you, maybe some grass stains, and that was that. Today? The world is covered with asphalt and concrete. If you take a punch and fall down and hit your head on THAT, you're possibly going to possibly get severe brain damage, go into a coma, or die. I saw somebody die from it, first-hand. One punch. He died.

I'm not going out like that. You want to swing on me, you're getting shot or stabbed (whichever looks like it will work better at the time). And I won't have any problem parading trauma surgeons through the court who will testify to the hazards of taking a punch these days, and how many people per year go through their emergency rooms with brain damage or die as a result of a fist fight.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Do you want to know why we can't just "take a punch" anymore? Let me explain. You see, once upon a time the world was covered with nice, soft grass and dirt. If you took a punch to the face and fell down, and hit your head, it would be no big deal. You could get up with some dirt on you, maybe some grass stains, and that was that. Today? The world is covered with asphalt and concrete. If you take a punch and fall down and hit your head on THAT, you're possibly going to possibly get severe brain damage, go into a coma, or die. I saw somebody die from it, first-hand. One punch. He died.

I'm not going out like that. You want to swing on me, you're getting shot or stabbed (whichever looks like it will work better at the time). And I won't have any problem parading trauma surgeons through the court who will testify to the hazards of taking a punch these days, and how many people per year go through their emergency rooms with brain damage or die as a result of a fist fight.

Hey, I am old but we DID have pavement back in my day...... And I am not even saying that the changes in our society are not warranted or proper. I am only pointing out the changes and suggesting that the concept of "fighting words" is antiquated. Your strong response only proves what I am saying, Fighting is no longer an acceptable response to words EVER. You said yourself that you will quickly escalate a punch to knives and guns, or in other words to "deadly force"......... what have I pointed out that was inaccurate?

 

[jerryv]

But aren't we off-topic. It's easy, and appropriate, to justify physical violence in response to physical violence. If I'm attacked, I'm also ready to respond with deadly force if necessary ..

But is it EVER justified to kill someone for what they say? I think not.

 

[jgreiner]

I always stated that if some SOB raped my daughter........they would find his naked body next to an old barn. His tally whacker would be NAILED to the barn...a rusty knife in his hand...and the barn set on fire. The chose would he his.

 

[jbombelli]

Hey, I am old but we DID have pavement back in my day...... And I am not even saying that the changes in our society are not warranted or proper. I am only pointing out the changes and suggesting that the concept of "fighting words" is antiquated. Your strong response only proves what I am saying, Fighting is no longer an acceptable response to words EVER. You said yourself that you will quickly escalate a punch to knives and guns, or in other words to "deadly force"......... what have I pointed out that was inaccurate?

Fighting is not a proper response to words, ever. That's correct.

I'm taking issue with the implication that I've read many, many times - we're not real men anymore because we're not willing to duke it out. I've been called a coward right here on this forum in the past because I'll go to deadly force before I engage in fisticuffs. Maybe that wasn't the intent of your post, but that was how it came across.

 

[Bunnykid68]

But aren't we off-topic. It's easy, and appropriate, to justify physical violence in response to physical violence. If I'm attacked, I'm also ready to respond with deadly force if necessary ..

But is it EVER justified to kill someone for what they say? I think not.

I can think of a few reasons but they cannot be discussed on this forum

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

But aren't we off-topic. It's easy, and appropriate, to justify physical violence in response to physical violence. If I'm attacked, I'm also ready to respond with deadly force if necessary ..

But is it EVER justified to kill someone for what they say? I think not.

That's my point...... It used to be a defense that you assaulted a person because of what they SAID. Now days that's just foolish. When those laws were enacted it wasn't often that a fight ended with a killing. Now it's very acceptable to kill a guy outright if you get assaulted by them. Different times require a revaluation of those old laws.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Fighting is not a proper response to words, ever. That's correct.

I'm taking issue with the implication that I've read many, many times - we're not real men anymore because we're not willing to duke it out. I've been called a coward right here on this forum in the past because I'll go to deadly force before I engage in fisticuffs. Maybe that wasn't the intent of your post, but that was how it came across.

I am with you, I do not want to fight, I do not wish to fight, it is painful.

Do you want to fight me? You do? I am just going to shoot you then, do you still wish to fight me?

If someone wants to fight me I would bring the Wrath of God down on them to keep from being injured if I could, so a big stick, knife or firearm will have to do.

Moral of the story, don't pick a fight with me

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Fighting is not a proper response to words, ever. That's correct.

I'm taking issue with the implication that I've read many, many times - we're not real men anymore because we're not willing to duke it out. I've been called a coward right here on this forum in the past because I'll go to deadly force before I engage in fisticuffs. Maybe that wasn't the intent of your post, but that was how it came across.

Then we are both on the same page. In my youth, despite the fact that I have carried a gun since I was 14, I wouldn't hesitate to pound a guy who was asking for it. The gun was for killing, not for lesson teaching. Now I am crippled (literally) with arthritis and cannot even walk without a stick, let alone fight. My macho days are well behind me. If a guy wants to fight then I can call in my 6'4", 340 pound son. If you can't wait for him then I guess you are getting shot. In my youth I was also a quick kid with a knife just like you, but today my pistol is my only viable recourse. If that makes me a coward then I am still manly enough to carry that weight on my shoulders.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

I can think of a few reasons but they cannot be discussed on this forum

I see what you are doing here!

Yes, its too bad that we can't discuss what will soon need to be done.....

 

[Bunnykid68]

I see what you are doing here!

Yes, its too bad that we can't discuss what will soon need to be done.....

I have no idea what you may or may not be talking about