Fencing Tournament: Saber Broke - kid got STABBED

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  • melensdad

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    Apr 2, 2008
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    We were at one of the High School Fencing Tournaments at a local school yesterday. This was a team event, not an individual event, and the score keeping was not very good. (more later)

    Anyway I was near the front of the event, in the school's fieldhouse when the Nun who heads up our fencing program ran over and said "DILLON GOT STABBED" ... my daughter and her team were with me at that moment so I had Melen run to get my first aid kit. I followed Sister Dorothy to find Dillon.

    I find Dillon sitting in a chair, another assistant coach is applying pressure to Dillon's side, a crowd is growing. My first aid kit shows up. There is no official 'trainer', EMT, etc in the area. Someone has already dialed 911 for an ambulance. Another teammate's father gets some ice, applies it to the back of Dillon's neck and is talking to him to keep him calm. I pull out some gauze pads but still have not seen the wound. Fencers wear SEVERAL LAYERS of gear to prevent this sort of thing. Someone called his mom, who fortunately was already on her way and pretty close.

    Slowly we undress Dillon. He's wearing a heavy Lame' jacket (electrified jacket), a heavy dual layer cotton fencing jacket, a competition grade 'plastron' (a side protector designed to prevent blade penetration), and under all that he has on a T-shirt. The problem with Fencing gear is that things like the lame' actually hook under the crotch too so they step into their clothes, insert their arms and then zip them up. Tough to get all that off when you have an injured kid and are trying to apply pressure to a wound.

    We finally get to look at the wound. There is a 3" to 4" gash on his side, then about a 1" area of non-wounded skin, then above the gash is a puncture wound that goes in 1 hole and out another hole about 3" farther back. The blade flexed around his ribs but stayed under the skin (probably under the muscle too). The broken blade tip, about 6" of it, had protruded out of the rear hole. It was removed while Dillon was still standing on the competition strip by the other coach . . . probably not the best idea, but as this evolved it appeared that it became a non-issue.

    Dillon never went into shock, the blade THANKFULLY never entered his chest cavity, as it bounced around his ribs under his skin/muscle layer.

    Gauze and pressure until the school's trainer shows up, he seem to be happy with what we did, he continued with the gauze and pressure. Through this Dillon is still alert, no signs of shock, his mom shows up and I pull her to the side and talk with her, explain that even if the trainer says its a flesh wound, and even if the EMTs (who also just showed up and replaced the trainer) say that this is a flesh wound, that Dillon needs to get to a hospital because we know that blade was broken off inside him and want to make sure there is nothing left inside him!!! Everyone is really amazingly calm, Dillon gets hauled off in the ambulance . . .

    Fast forward a few hours . . .

    I spoke to Dillon's mom about 6:15pm, they were still in the hospital. X-rays (?) showed that there was probably no entry into Dillon's chest cavity. Dillon was hungry and joking around, I could hear him in the background, the doctors wanted to keep him until 9pm and then send him down for another X-ray (?) to check the chest cavity near the wound again. No food for Dillon until they confirm that the wound is what he thinks it is, once confirmed then Dillon can get some food and probably go home. Dillon got a stitch at the top of the gash where it was a bit wider. He also got a couple stitches to close each end of the puncture.

    SO, here are my observations, as someone who has only been involved in Fencing for about 3 years this seem like, and is statistically, a very safe sport. I am spend a few hours each week working on maintaining our team's equipment, I build Sabers, Epees and Foils, I've seen a lot of brands, and lot of parts, have wired these weapons from raw parts, seen a lot of broken blades. BUT this is nothing like anything I've seen. I spoke with one of the coaches, he recalls a stabbing that occurred in Saber in 1979. Nobody else can recall a Saber stabbing.

    Epee stabbings have occurred, they are rare, but that event is sort of a stabbing style of event while Saber is a slashing type of event.

    Still, this was really bizarre because EVERY blade I've seen break, either in competition, practice or at the club, has gone flying away. Its sort of the nature of what happens, a break cleanly breaks and the broken part usually ends up 3' to 10' away. The curious part is that in this case the broken part of the blade is what was INSIDE Dillon, instead of flying away it actually is what caused the puncture wound.​

    I will be getting the blade from the hospital and will be examining it with the saber coach (who is also a more experienced armorer than I am) and we want to look at the break for signs of bending because we suspect that the blade bent 180 degrees and drove into Dillon, snapped off inside him, and then the shaft withdrew leaving the tip BACKWARDS in Dillon's skin.

    The tip of a Saber blade is actually rolled into a blunt loop, it would take a huge amount of force to puncture the skin with the blunt end, and I can't imagine the blunt end EVER going through all the safety padding that Dillon was wearing . . . especially since his equipment was regulation competition safety equipment.

    TECHNICAL NOTE: the broken blade was a LEON PAUL brand blade, conforming to S2000 standards. (among the best quality amateur blades).

    And, just for reference, the incident happened on the last touch of the bout, Dillon scored the winning touch and won the bout :D

    * Melen's Girl's Saber team was tied for 2nd place but when medals were awarded we were told her team came in 4th! :n00b: The scoreboard listed them in 4th place, I informed them BEFORE the awards that their scoreboard had listed too many "losses" and was told they would correct it. Apparently they did not correct it. So I pulled all the score sheets after the awards and proved that the scoreboard was wrong. This was a friendly tournament, there is no "official" need to contest the results, the tournament organizer is a good guy, we will re-score the event and if our girls did place they will get their medals.
     

    Rotor Talker

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    Mar 15, 2008
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    Well done!

    Sounds like you managed the situation very well, good work.

    Only concern, and it was something sounds like happened before you saw Dillon was removing the broken piece, you mentioned probably not best thing to have done, but it's a natural human reaction to pull something out. In this case like you said it was a non-issue, but, had the wound been more in the chest, it would have been a very big issue, just food for thought.

    As soon as my back gets stronger, hoping in January I want to start doing fencing. I have been to a local place in Indy, but that was before I sought help for my intense back troubles. My treatment put fencing on hold, I hope to start up in January. I might be PMing you with some questions if that is OK?

    Good job managing that situation.
     

    Panama

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    Jul 13, 2008
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    WOW!
    Glad is is......OK sore I am sure but wow, just wow!

    Does Sister Dorothy Marie, have a habit, of wielding her Foil, in her habit?
    I have seen a lot of "things" in my life, but NEVER a foil wielding nun!
    Got any pictures?
    :dunno:
     

    melensdad

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    WOW!
    Glad is is......OK sore I am sure but wow, just wow!

    Does Sister Dorothy Marie, have a habit, of wielding her Foil, in her habit?
    I have seen a lot of "things" in my life, but NEVER a foil wielding nun!
    Got any pictures?
    :dunno:

    Uh, yes. At practice she is one of the coaches but does not actively engage. I have never seen her suit up in fencing gear. When she gives advice, she is wearing her habit. Now that said, she does not actively fence in her habit, nor have I ever seen her engage an opponent, even in a slow motion demonstration as even in those types of demonstrations its only safe to do with a full face mask. So she will essentially use a Foil against a shadow or the air, but not against a student.

    Our head coach is a Foil coach, we have a second dual event coach who does both Foil and Epee, plus we have a dedicated Saber coach and a secondary Epee coach. I assist in Saber and am an armorer for all 3 blades, and am the unofficial medic. Sister Dorothy Marie attends every practice, but coaches minimally, but all of us report to her.
     

    melensdad

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    That mental picture.........is worth a 1000 words (or smiles)!

    I'll see if I can remember to snap a photo of the Fencing Nun at one of the practices.

    Sister Dorothy Marie only approved Saber for the first time last year. She was pretty shaken up and was talking about dropping Saber. The head Saber coach and myself both spoke with her and we are going to keep the Saber event, but only under the condition that our fencers switch to "FIE" standard Plastrons. The Plastron that our kids wear is a competition grade safety barrier and it is the accepted standard for probably 95% of the competitions, but there is a higher standard available called the "FIE" standard. So that will be the new requirement for this team. I know of no other team that requires it (maybe the Olympics???).

    My daughter also competes on a club team, and has done so for a couple years, they hold tournaments and we don't require FIE standards for any events at the club either.

    Still, I can't fault Sister Dorothy for wanting the kids to have the HIGHEST level of safety available. She wants to do what she can to avoid this, even if it was a freak accident.
     

    esrice

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    Closest thing I could find to actual fencing nuns.

    article-0-0136AEA700000578-960_468x338.jpg


    Crossing swords: The old folks' home where priests and nuns swap Zimmers for Zorro | Mail Online
     

    melensdad

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    That is FOIL shown in that picture. But clearly not at the competition level :D.

    Dillon was fencing Saber, which is a very fast, slashing type event, using a different style blade. Foil is for sissies (and Nuns). My daughter, who fences Saber (and occasionally Epee) has a T-Shirt that says: FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS FENCE FOIL.
     

    mrjarrell

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    Kid's got a great story for the future. Not many folks these days can say they've been run through with a sabre! That scar will garner him many beers in years to come!
     

    esrice

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    Foil is for sissies (and Nuns). My daughter, who fences Saber (and occasionally Epee) has a T-Shirt that says: FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS FENCE FOIL.

    Maybe if they made them from a higher quality product, they'd get more respect? :D

    aluminum_foil.jpg
     

    melensdad

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    Sounds like you managed the situation very well, good work.

    Only concern, and it was something sounds like happened before you saw Dillon was removing the broken piece, you mentioned probably not best thing to have done, but it's a natural human reaction to pull something out. In this case like you said it was a non-issue, but, had the wound been more in the chest, it would have been a very big issue, just food for thought.

    As soon as my back gets stronger, hoping in January I want to start doing fencing. I have been to a local place in Indy, but that was before I sought help for my intense back troubles. My treatment put fencing on hold, I hope to start up in January. I might be PMing you with some questions if that is OK?

    Good job managing that situation.

    Absolutely feel free to get in touch with me. My arthritis prevents me from fencing, but I'm active in other ways in the sport. I know there used to be a few clubs in the Indy area, not sure what clubs are still active down there. My daughter had been invited to compete down there but we didn't make. She has competed at Purdue and her coach wanted her to try out for the Jr Olympics, tryouts were a week ago in Culver, but school finals week got in the way of tryouts.

    Fencing is a pretty cool sport, and competitive fencers can be of any age from teens to their 50's or even 60's. Its one of the only sports I know where you can compete against Olympic level athletes even if you are just beginning.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    Glad to hear Dillon is OK.

    I used to love fencing when I was in college. We had primarily foil, no epee to speak of, and one guy (known as "Kevin the Barbarian") who fenced saber, although that was before anyone had come up with a way to use lame' for saber. I wanted to move to the other weapons, but sadly, never went beyond foil. I still have all 4 of my foils and my mask... sadly, however, my whites no longer fit.
    I tried.
    It hurt.
    It was not pretty.
    Do not ask for pictures; none exist, and you wouldn't want to see them.
    Trust me on this.

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    yenningcomity

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    I have done a little fencing at IUPUI as well as a club on the east side. I have had a handful of sabers break in my hands, but always at the hilt. Fencing is a fairly safe sport, but it goes to show there is risk in everything.
     

    Bigum1969

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    I know nothing about fencing and found your post fascinating. I'm not glad the poor kid got skewered, but the post kind of explained the sport to me.
     

    melensdad

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    I know nothing about fencing and found your post fascinating. I'm not glad the poor kid got skewered, but the post kind of explained the sport to me.

    Well Dillon called me a few minutes ago to give me an update. He was released from the hospital about 10pm last night, is under doctors orders for LIGHT DUTY activity for 12 days, but then can resume normal activity.

    As for the sport of Fencing. Its really 3 sports under a common name.

    FOIL is a poking type event, with the torso (not arms) of the opponent as the target area. A touch is scored by depressing a button on the end of the blade, but it must come in contact with the electric vest worn by the opponent.

    EPEE is a poking type event, but the whole body down to the toes of the opponent is considered target area. Epee blades are longer, heavier and stiffer than foil blades.

    SABER is unlike either of the other two, its very fast and some say violent, in that speed and aggressiveness are often factors, it is a slashing event and the opponent's entire upper body is target area (arms, head, torso). The whole surface of the blade is used for scoring and therefore there is no electronic button on the blade, the whole blade is an electrical conductor. If it comes in contact with the electrified Lame' (jacket) of the opponent a signal light on the scoring box is lighted. In the case of 2 lights being lit, a director determines which was the attacker and if the attack maintained priority.
     

    Bluedragon

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    Glad to hear he wasn't seriously injured. I agree with others, that is going to be quite the conversation starter at a party or bar. I have always wanted to try fencing but sadly could never find a place that had it. The only place I found was at Ball State, but I was told you had to be a student or be affiliated with the school. I.E staff, teacher, or student. Ect. Sucks because it looks like it would be a lot of fun, and a great way to exercise. :D
     
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