Explain what went wrong..

[Militarypol21]

CAUTION (EXTREMELY GRAPHIC AUDIO)

Deputy Kyle Dinkheller Shot to Death during a routine traffic stop. Deputy Dinkheller radioed to dispatch that the suspect had a gun, why didn't the officer take action as soon as he saw the gun? Why did he wait so long before returning fire? Training flaw? Did the officer freeze up?


What is your input?

Deputy Kyle Dinkheller Shot to Death - (Warning Graphic Video) Video

 

[redneckmedic]

One of the training companys used this video as an advertisement ploy a few months b back and INGO reamed them.

I think I read that the LEO just resently was involved in another incident where he was punished for over reacting. Maybe another shooting or something or another, details are fuzzy, but he was gun shy because of it. Very sad indeed.

Biggest reason that the public need to stay out of LEO discipline issues. They have no idea what is or isn't appropriate per situation.

IMO tazers save lives, I think all LEO should have two and use them freely.

 

[Jon Craig]

Way too much restraint, and bad marksmanship.

That was hard to watch...wow.

I always assumed if you pulled a gun on a cop, you'd be dead within seconds.

 

[scottka]

I always assumed if you pulled a gun on a cop, you'd be dead within seconds.[/QUOTE

Agreed. I think that's pretty much the way I feel personally too. If there is a gun leveled at me, I'm not going to give him the slightest verbal warning.

It is certainly a shame though that this series of events (prior over reacting) may have gotten this officer killed.

 

[shooter521]

The video and its use in the Front Sight ad was discussed here:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ing_deputy_s_death_video_for_advertising.html

I am moving this new thread into the Tactics & Training subforum for continued discussion.

 

[Splix]

The officer should have already drawn, cocked, all safety off, and had his gun pressed against his face when that guy ran at him the first time like he did. He ran at him again the 2nd time, he should have been on the ground unable to walk or do anything from being hit in on the right. I've never been in a situation like that, but with clear thinking while watching from a computer screen, I would have chosen my life over my career (if he was already on thin ice from an earlier incident) and put the guy down before he went back to his car to get his rifle.

 

[Dogman]

One thing people don't understand about most police shootings is that they are reactive. This is why there are 15 shots fired and maybe 1 will hit the bg. The officer is taken by surprise and the same as anyone that has a gun pointed at them officers react differently. Some go on the attack, some duck for cover, some freeze. A thousand different things go through your mind in a split second. This just goes to show why traffic stops are one of the most dangerous parts of the job.

 

[Donnelly]

That was a bad situation all around for the LEO. He was using way too much restraint. Most LEO carry at least one form of less-than-lethal weapon to use in similar situations (pepper spray, baton, Tazer). When he was charged by the suspect (suspect still unarmed), it appeared that the suspect was ready to do violence toward the LEO. No other units had responded at this time. He certainly would have been authorized to use less-than-lethal against the suspect. Problem #2, he let the suspect go back to his vehicle after this, and the suspect armed himself in the vehicle. He should have been right on the guys heels, preferably with sidearm drawn. Problem #3, he was outgunned. The officer had a handgun, the suspect had a rifle (Miin-14 if I recall from the other thread).

That stop progressed very quickly. I feel sorry for the LEO. I doubt I could have done any better if it were me and things were moving that quickly, and that is the scary part.

 

[E5RANGER375]

The officer should have already drawn, cocked, all safety off, and had his gun pressed against his face when that guy ran at him the first time like he did.

1. drawn at that point? NO (maybe a batton or mace) i would have tased or the least maced the guy the first time he ran up on me and i had said stop. even as a civilian the guy would have been laying on the ground (not shot, just in pain. my gun would still be in its holster) if he ran up on me like that acting like a fool, because he was a threat to my safety in my eyes.

2. cocked? whats the point of not already having your gun loaded? NONE

3. safety off? do you use a safety in your holster on a modern firearm (not a SA)?? I never use a safety unless im carrying a 1911, which is very rare. my holster and keeping my finger off the trigger is my safety.

4. gun pressed against his face? yeah put that gun out there like that and see how fast it gets taken away from you. the above statements make me pretty sure you are an inexperienced gun owner, i dont care if you reply and say youve owned guns for 30 years, you still dont know how to use them in my opinion. please get some training

 

[shooter521]

3. safety off? do you use a safety in your holster on a modern firearm (not a SA)??

AFAIK, most departments that issue pistols with manual safeties require them to be engaged when the gun is in the holster. Think Beretta, S&W 3rd Gen, and Ruger, here. Obviously, with guns like the Glock and M&P (and SIGs, for that matter) that lack a manual safety, it's a moot point.

 

[E5RANGER375]

AFAIK, most departments that issue pistols with manual safeties require them to be engaged when the gun is in the holster. Think Beretta, S&W 3rd Gen, and Ruger, here. Obviously, with guns like the Glock and M&P (and SIGs, for that matter) that lack a manual safety, it's a moot point.

ok then i will give the benefit of doubt on the safety issue (i wasnt aware of this rule for some departments) thanks for making me aware of this. but i stand by the other points i made for now.

 

[EvilleDoug]

with out reading the previous post and from what I've read here...am I right in my understanding that this officer was killed in this video and that he had a previous encounter where he was aggressive and was reprimanded for it?

If my understanding is correct, then this is a very sad thing for this officer. I pray that if I'm ever in the wrong state of mind and act like this shooter, the officer who responds has the same amount of restraint...right up until I get a gun out of my truck and he drops me cold on the side of the road.

If a person, anyone, pulls a gun during an encounter with a LEO, then that person deserves the outcome he/she receives.

 

[Jon Craig]

I hope that if I'm ever in the wrong state of mind and act like this shooter, the officer who responds has the same amount of restraint...right up until I get a gun out of my truck and he drops me cold on the side of the road.

Yup.

At no point, until he retrieved his weapon, did that guy deserve to get shot. Smacked around, sure; but shot, no.

The second he grabbed that weapon, it was over as far as I'm concerned, and the officer would have been justified in dropping him.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Yup.

At no point, until he retrieved his weapon, did that guy deserve to get shot. Smacked around, sure; but shot, no.

The second he grabbed that weapon, it was over as far as I'm concerned, and the officer would have been justified in dropping him.

exactly!!

 

[Militarypol21]

Yup.

At no point, until he retrieved his weapon, did that guy deserve to get shot. Smacked around, sure; but shot, no.

The second he grabbed that weapon, it was over as far as I'm concerned, and the officer would have been justified in dropping him.

That is exactly the way I saw it. The officer made it clear he the suspect get a gun when he radioed into dispatched. At that point you, as an officer, know all hell is about to break loose and it's time to end this. It's kind of hard to see in the video but it looks like the suspect gets the gun out and possibly loads it right there on the seat while the officer is radioing into dispatch "he has a gun". Just seeing him load his weapon (funble with his weapon, whatever) after acting completely irrational is PC to drop him in my eyes.

If this were me in this situation.. when the subject approached me the first time with his hands in his coat/pants, I would have drawn on him telling him to put his hands on his head and to stop(who in their right mind is going to get out of their vehicle during a traffic stop and walk up to the officer with their hands in their pants unless they are wishing to get drawn on). As soon as he made his hands visible and didn't have a weapon I would have holstered my weapon and then pulled out the tazer (whether this officer had one or not is unknown). I would have then tazed him when he approached me the second time.

If the subject happened to have made his way back to his vehicle, I would have taken cover at my vehicle and at least put the front sight on him ordering him to the ground. If the subject then went for a gun I would have been more than ready to take him out. In my eyes it doesn't matter whether the subject had an assult rifle, handgun, or any other type of gun because he wouldn't have had time to pull the trigger once he pointed the gun in my direction.

Then again I am the one watching the video and even though it lasted 3 minutes, I bet in reality this seemed like an instant. I wish there was a way to get an adrinaline rush at the range and then attempt to put some bullets on paper to see how well one can get a decent grouping.

 

[Jon Craig]

Then again I am the one watching the video and even though it lasted 3 minutes, I bet in reality this seemed like an instant. I wish there was a way to get an adrinaline rush at the range and then attempt to put some bullets on paper to see how well one can get a decent grouping.

Indeed. Plus you have the officer's alleged prior discipline over another incident, which would certainly figure into his amazing (and fatal, sadly) restraint during this encounter.

I know it's easy to play armchair cop, but, wow, like Splix said, I would have thought "f my career, this guy's gonna kill me, better apply the Mal Reynolds Principle and kill him first..."

And I HAVE drawn and fired a firearm in self-defense before (L.A. riots.)...

 

[junglerogue]

This is one of those sobering videos that departments make all cadets and new officers watch. Here's another to add to the mix.

 

[Eddie]

I did some reading on other articles about this incident. It seems that the deputy fired the first shot and several others but missed. The bad guy had an M1 carbine. He walked up on the deputy, firing several shots to "suppress him" and then shot him in the arms and legs, reloaded and put a final round to the head. No way to know how accurate any of the accounts were, just what I read.

 

[Militarypol21]

What is up with both videos the officers go straight to their radios? Pull out your sidearm and FIRE BACK!!! Then get on the radio and radio in officer down. Calling for back-up is one thing but if you're dead what's the point? They need to defend themselves first on not waste that extra few seconds calling into dispatch. Just my

 

[E5RANGER375]

What is up with both videos the officers go straight to their radios? Pull out your sidearm and FIRE BACK!!! Then get on the radio and radio in officer down. Calling for back-up is one thing but if you're dead what's the point? They need to defend themselves first on not waste that extra few seconds calling into dispatch. Just my

I agree!! i think their training is letting them down. they use the radio as the first crutch. in both cases they made dispatch aware that they needed help. and im sure their fellow officers were making haste, getting back on the radio waisted precious seconds. the first video if i was the LEO, AS SOON AS I SAW the man pick up the gun, i would have iced him!!! because he escelated the force continuem.

we realy need to re-evaluate why we are sending these men and women into slaughter for traffic stops?? lets start mailing tickets to who-ever the vehicle belongs too!!! we need to get away from traffic stops for speeding and other petty things. now if its reckless, like excessive speed or almost causing an accident or drunk driving then wait till you have 2 cars and then approach.

Im not an LEO, but i have taken a lot of the same training the more advanced LEOs go through, so i understand some of their tactical proceedures and the force contineum and such because i also have worked with former and current LEOs . I AM IN NO WAY claiming to be, wanna be, or desire to be a cop, because i dont, nor am i saying i understand all of the complexities and laws of their hard jobs. but heres what im getting at..... if you have a suspect (maybe you dont know hes dangerous) CALL FOR BACKUP and wait till it arrives, even if its for a speeding stop on a person with no priors. IF you are making a felony stop, please wait for multiple backup units. if the suspect it contained and not a danger to others at the present time, then SLOW DOWN!! there is NO RUSH, you got him, that guy isnt going anywhere unless you F up and make hasty mistakes. Of coarse im chiming in from a military point of view, where i was rolling up some VERY BAD guys who also wanted to kill me, and i had other BIG toys at my disposal that a cop may not have. OFFICERS of INGO: please do not take all of what i have said as me bashing you as officers, or saying you dont know how to do your job. I am saying this because for all of you fine men and women I AM truely concerned about you making it home to your loved ones!!! It is one of the worst tradjedies in America when we have an inocent officer struck down in the line of duty!! and it should never happen, because they felt they were too rushed by department policy to SLOW DOWN and get help there. PLEASE BE SAFE!!!! whether your a a-hole cop or the nicest cop in the world, you are a symbol, and we need you to prevail and stand for the right in this country so the criminals dont walk all over us and feel empowered. BE SAFE!!! I truely mean that.