E85 price is sure coming down

[hoosierdoc]

$2.35/gal now. Anyone know why it's so much cheaper than gas now? I thought subsidies are going away too.

 

[indydrew1]

Every person I know with a flex-fuel car or truck tells me they never use it because the dealer told them its bad for there engine. I say thats nuts. But I've been told by every single flex-fuel person they don't use it. I say who cares if it's bad, you got a 1000,000 mile power train warranty. I don't believe it's bad for the car, but I don't own one, and haven't done the research.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Indydrew, I am not sure you even came close to answering the OP's question.


OP, I think fuel prices in general are coming down right now.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Yes they are, however E 85 was typically around $.50 a gallon cheaper than gasoline and now it's 90.

 

[meyer4589]

Don't know why it's cheaper right now, but from a few guys I know with flex fuel capable vehicles they say that E85 is less efficient than if they filled up with regular 87 octane gas.

 

[Tula47]

Also the decrease in E85 cost could be because corn and other grains are starting to come down in price as well. This was a pretty good season for farmers and the yields so far have been good.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Don't know why it's cheaper right now, but from a few guys I know with flex fuel capable vehicles they say that E85 is less efficient than if they filled up with regular 87 octane gas.

Yes, it's generally 25 to 30% less efficient. The price difference is about to make that worthwhile though, Unless there are other differences and downsides to ethanol.

 

[snapping turtle]

I personally think indydrew might hAve a point. He just might not have pointed it out well. I ramble so here is my ramblings.

Since flex fuel cars/trucks are fewer on the road than the older non flex models overall the demand is less right off simple statistics. Now add into thAt new car/truck percentage the fact that people who have newer cars most likely don't count the pennies per gallon savings on e85 over regular unleaded. They don't need to they can own a new.car. Add in the fact the age ofnewer cars owners might also be on average older and being creatureS of habit if you have put unleaded fuel in the gas tank since the age of 16 they continue to do so out of if nothing else habit. Add in a few that think it is bad fuel from who or what ever. And then Maybe add in some that think the subsidies are politically wrong.

Less demand lower price. Simple.

Also if flex fuel cars owners might have more money if we even loose 2 cents a gallon of gas but the customer might buy more high priced goods inside with 100% markups. Why not try to lure them in the lot with as cheap a fuel as possible. Heck they are going statistically buy regular unleaded anyway.

 

[TAT7]

Also the decrease in E85 cost could be because corn and other grains are starting to come down in price as well. This was a pretty good season for farmers and the yields so far have been good.

This is my guess.

 

[bobbittle]

It will have to come down significantly to ever see the inside of my gas tank. The decreased mileage is a killer. And you still need to run an entire tank of dino gas through every now and then per manufacturer.

 

[mdmayo]

Also the decrease in E85 cost could be because corn and other grains are starting to come down in price as well. This was a pretty good season for farmers and the yields so far have been good.

This has a direct impact. Have a good harvest, cheap fuel; have a poor harvest, expensive fuel. I wont even go into how it affects food prices to tie our food crop to our fuel source.

The "bad for the engine" is somewhat overstated. It is bad for the fuel delivery system, the engine, not so much. E85 is acidic, it eats rubber and most synthetic seals in the injectors and fuel rails, as well as those in conventional gasoline storage/supply systems and pipelines. We haven't begun to see the "true" expense of ethanol use in the USA.

 

[rnmcguire]

If gas is $3.00 then E85 would need to be less than $225 to be "cheaper" based on my first hand use with it. My truck is flex fuel and I get 25% less miles per tank on E85. I've driven other flex fuel vehicles with similar results. I don't buy the stuff because it's a ripoff.

 

[danmdevries]

E85 is a great fuel for tuned performance vehicles built to run on it. I don't recall the actual octane comparison, but somewhere around 100 octane gasoline for detonation protection equivalent to E85.

That's the only time I've ever run E85 was on a car I built a few years ago and sadly had to sell.

For the standard consumer, E85 makes little sense unless it's at least 75% the cost of regular unleaded.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Yes they are, however E 85 was typically around $.50 a gallon cheaper than gasoline and now it's 90.

Possibly to do with corn prices, supply, and futures?

Just to put it in perspective what this year's harvest will probably look like, my dad has always dreamed of hitting 200 bu/ac. He started harvesting his first field of corn last night and was over 240 bu/ac on the monitor (which normally runs +/-10 bu/ac to the final yield of the field.

So a month ago we had ethanol plants that were completely out of corn (because of last year's drought) and paying a $0.20-.30 premium plus not charging any drying fees to entice farmers to harvest early. Now we're looking at a huge surplus. So it's natural that corn prices will be falling and as a result ethanol prices should follow.

That being said, I have no idea how the subsidies mess with the normal supply/demand market prices...

 

[remauto1187]

The "bad for the engine" is somewhat overstated. It is bad for the fuel delivery system, the engine, not so much. E85 is acidic, it eats rubber and most synthetic seals in the injectors and fuel rails, as well as those in conventional gasoline storage/supply systems and pipelines. We haven't begun to see the "true" expense of ethanol use in the USA.

None of this is true. Ethanol is a solvent, not an acid. It will not eat anything in a fuel system THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR IT. NOWHERE in any owners manual of a non ethanol vehicle does it say to use E85 as a fuel source. So dont use it in one and there wont be any problems. The E85 "problems" with wreaking havoc on fuel systems were created by people that cannot read the owners manual.



E85 does get less mileage than 87 octane unleaded, around 25% less as others have stated. That is a scientific fact related to the amount of BTU's put out by E85 and 87 Octane when burnt. Much like the difference between between burning hardwood vs. pine in a fireplace. The hardwood will last longer burning and will put more heat out.(BTU's)

Gasoline gallon equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

E85 BTU output: 81,800BTU/Gal
87 OCTANE : 114,500BTU/Gal

Some loss of efficiency in E85 is recouped in creative ignition advance curves to optimize engine performance while running E85, this why there is a sensor in the tank on FFV(E85) vehicles. So the powertrain computer knows what fuel you are running. The ignition timing, fuel injection pulse width(time on/off) and a few other paramters are very different when the vehicle is running on E85 vs. Regular Unleaded.

As others have stated, E85 would have to be substantially cheaper than Regular Unleaded for it to be economical to run in our vehicles (FFV). It still all boils down to the real cost to drive each and every mile and 87 Octane is the best bang for the buck and most economical vs. E85.

 

[hooky]

Possibly to do with corn prices, supply, and futures?

Just to put it in perspective what this year's harvest will probably look like, my dad has always dreamed of hitting 200 bu/ac. He started harvesting his first field of corn last night and was over 240 bu/ac on the monitor (which normally runs +/-10 bu/ac to the final yield of the field.

So a month ago we had ethanol plants that were completely out of corn (because of last year's drought) and paying a $0.20-.30 premium plus not charging any drying fees to entice farmers to harvest early. Now we're looking at a huge surplus. So it's natural that corn prices will be falling and as a result ethanol prices should follow.

That being said, I have no idea how the subsidies mess with the normal supply/demand market prices...

^^^This^^^

Corn prices are in the low to mid $4 range right now. This time last year it was more than $2 higher.

 

[Kedric]

I think it is a combination of the cost of corn dropping so much and the fact that no one happily/willingly uses it. maybe some fleets or Police departments, but that would be about all.

It is a horrible fuel for use during cold months, even vehicles designed for flex fuel bog down and run like crap on it due to the reduced volatility of the fuel.
During the summer, with the significantly reduced fuel economy even when it does run decently through your vehicle, it still makes it an unattractive option even at the current price point.

 

[mdmayo]

None of this is true.

Have a degree in chemistry? I do. Ever do any real-world environmental cleanup? I have for 20 years. Are you an ASE certified Automotive Technician? I am in fuel delivery systems.

Yes, ethanol is a solvent, as is gasoline (and many of the individual compounds it is made of). Ethanol is also an acid, gasoline is not. Acid < pH7.0 < base. Ethanol's Ka = 15.9; pH = -Log(15.9) = 1.20. Clearly a very acidic liquid. Gasoline's Ka = 0; pH = -Log(0) = infinity. Clearly non-acidic. One of the biggest environmental concerns about ethanol is that due to it's acidity it corrodes metals and dissolves rubber. These points lead to shortened lifecycle of fuel injection systems, storage/supply systems, and pipeline delivery.

Results?
Environmental: Leaky underground storage tanks, pump islands, and pipelines that do contaminate soil and groundwater.
Automotive: Premature failure of the injectors and seals in Flex-Fuel systems, not much of a concern in ethanol-only systems.

You are speaking from an indefensible position.

 

[Clay]

E85 is great for anything that requires high octane for performance (ie anything with a turbo/supercharger/etc) and the ability to adjust fuel to the engine.

Other than that, E85 needs to be 30% cheaper than regular gasoline for it to be a break even proposition. You require about 30% more fuel to be injected into the engine to get the same power with E85, so you will actually get LESS MPG using E85. So far I never see E85 being to that break even point. Right now with $3.00/gal fuel, E85 would have to be about $2.10/gal.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Have a degree in chemistry? I do. Ever do any real-world environmental cleanup? I have for 20 years. Are you an ASE certified Automotive Technician? I am in fuel delivery systems.

Yes, ethanol is a solvent, as is gasoline (and many of the individual compounds it is made of). Ethanol is also an acid, gasoline is not. Acid < pH7.0 < base. Ethanol's Ka = 15.9; pH = -Log(15.9) = 1.20. Clearly a very acidic liquid. Gasoline's Ka = 0; pH = -Log[0] = -Log(0) = infinity. Clearly non-acidic. One of the biggest environmental concerns about ethanol is that due to it's acidity it corrodes metals and dissolves rubber. These points lead to shortened lifecycle of fuel injection systems, storage/supply systems, and pipeline delivery.

Results?
Environmental: Leaky underground storage tanks, pump islands, and pipelines that do contaminate soil and groundwater.
Automotive: Premature failure of the injectors and seals in Flex-Fuel systems, not much of a concern in ethanol-only systems.

You are speaking from an indefensible position.

Hmmm... degree in chemistry... I don't mean to insult you, but it probably will... in order to have a ph does something not have to be in aqueous solution giving up H+ or OH- ions?

Gasoline doesn't go into solution so has no measurable ph. Ethanol does go into solution, however the process of ethanol entering solution/mixture with water makes it impossible to measure the ph of ethanol on its own, so we're left with the ph of the ethanol/water solution which is ~7.9 or very slightly basic, but not more basic than water and other things that we typically consume.