Duty to Inform

[Tay]

I have NO "issues with obeying the laws"! But I DO have "issues" with law enforcement officers who go above the law, and/or make up laws that don't exist!
Dont you?

This is exactly how I feel.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Cops are bad and so is OC

 

[Tay]

Cops are bad and so is OC

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I know some pretty cool LEO's that actually know their schtuff. But there's the select few who think they're above the law and run the show.

I typically OC more so than CC. I feel if someone see's my piece they're less likely to instigate something for the sake of their own self-preservation. But in the end, I just carry comfortable.

 

[Booya]

I read all 7 pages and am still trying to figure out that if the OP had no intention of informing why even bust out the pink slip at all? I never inform and if asked, I lie. I hate to be so blunt about it, but I mean no ill will to any LEO, so why even introduce a gun into the scenario at all. I'm close friends with several LEO and we go round and round about it al the time. One guy says he would always like to know, the other says he's just fine not knowing. I'm pleasent and respectful during the encounter if everyone else is as well. There shouldn't be any reason to suspect I'm doing anything wrong (other then why I was stopped). Why turn a traffic stop into what the OP had to deal with. If for some reason i get asked to exit the vehicle, then I'll inform just to avoid surprises, but if that's happening, we've moved from regular traffic stop to something different already...

 

[SteveM4A1]

I have NO "issues with obeying the laws"! But I DO have "issues" with law enforcement officers who go above the law, and/or make up laws that don't exist!
Dont you?

Yea I don't really understand how those officers aren't held to a higher standard. I encountered one the other day at the local library...twas fun

 

[nakinate]

I read all 7 pages and am still trying to figure out that if the OP had no intention of informing why even bust out the pink slip at all? I never inform and if asked, I lie. I hate to be so blunt about it, but I mean no ill will to any LEO, so why even introduce a gun into the scenario at all. I'm close friends with several LEO and we go round and round about it al the time. One guy says he would always like to know, the other says he's just fine not knowing. I'm pleasent and respectful during the encounter if everyone else is as well. There shouldn't be any reason to suspect I'm doing anything wrong (other then why I was stopped). Why turn a traffic stop into what the OP had to deal with. If for some reason i get asked to exit the vehicle, then I'll inform just to avoid surprises, but if that's happening, we've moved from regular traffic stop to something different already...

are there any legal ramifications with lying to LEO about having a gun on you?

 

[Booya]

are there any legal ramifications with lying to LEO about having a gun on you?

Not that I know of. If I was lying to impede an investigation then yes, but lying about whether I have a firearm or not doesn't have anything to do with the investigation as to why I was speeding, swerving, ... Etc (reason i was pulled over).

I'll add this from a resident expert.

Situation dependent, it all depends on what you're lying about. If you know Jimmy robbed the gas station and you tell me Timmy did it to try and throw me off the trail, that's illegal. If you tell me your dad was in the Civil War and your a certifed blimp pilot, that's not illegal. The relevant part here is "gives false information in the official investigation of the commission of a crime, knowing the report or information to be false;"

 

[Bunnykid68]

are there any legal ramifications with lying to LEO about having a gun on you?

Shouldn't be, it's not like you were lying to an officer in the course of investigation and a speeding ticket or other traffic violation is not an investigation, it's just fishing

 

[Bunnykid68]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I know some pretty cool LEO's that actually know their schtuff. But there's the select few who think they're above the law and run the show.

I typically OC more so than CC. I feel if someone see's my piece they're less likely to instigate something for the sake of their own self-preservation. But in the end, I just carry comfortable.

Don't misunderstand me, it's not that I hate all cops, just the ones I do not know. We have some great officers on here and I would honestly love it if any of them came to my town and retrained the entire force here.

 

[2A_Tom]

Cops are bad and so is OC

LOL you got one.

Don't misunderstand me, it's not that I hate all cops, just the ones I do not know. We have some great officers on here and I would honestly love it if any of them came to my town and retrained the entire force here.

A kinder gentler BK who explains himself. Or did someone get hold of his keyboard?

 

[KG1]

Don't misunderstand me, it's not that I hate all cops, just the ones I do not know. We have some great officers on here and I would honestly love it if any of them came to my town and retrained the entire force here.

From what I understand that could take some overtime.

 

[Bunnykid68]

From what I understand that could take some overtime.

Indeed. It is easier to train people the right way the 1st time then to retrain bad habits out of them

 

[KG1]

Logic and relevancy are sometimes only for the open minded.

The point I was trying to make is that people are people and will resort to who they are regardless of training or they will put their own spin on it. People lie for their own self gain and don't have to be taught. Are children taught to lie other than watching their parents lie? They learn that if they say that the cat did it and get away with it then they are on to a way of life unless they are taught truth and integrity.

According to the logic of mrjarell LEO are taught to lie about everything. What about when I taught my kids to tell their Grandmother that they like that sweater (that could have easily won the ugliest sweater contest) she gave them for Christmas to keep from hurting her feelings. Was I teaching them to lie or be respectful?

Wut? Are you suggesting LEO lie about things such as in the OP to keep from hurting our feelings? Your warm fuzzy example does not compute.

 

[88GT]

Logic and relevancy are sometimes only for the open minded.

Would it be safe to say, then, that you are not open minded?

The point I was trying to make is that people are people and will resort to who they are regardless of training or they will put their own spin on it. People lie for their own self gain and don't have to be taught. Are children taught to lie other than watching their parents lie? They learn that if they say that the cat did it and get away with it then they are on to a way of life unless they are taught truth and integrity.

And that still doesn't address whether or not LE is trained in deception.

According to the logic of mrjarell LEO are taught to lie about everything.

Not everything. Just when it serves the purpose. The ends justify the means.

What about when I taught my kids to tell their Grandmother that they like that sweater (that could have easily won the ugliest sweater contest) she gave them for Christmas to keep from hurting her feelings. Was I teaching them to lie or be respectful?

To lie. That the goal is seemingly morally superior than putting someone in jail makes no difference.

 

[mrjarrell]

Logic and relevancy are sometimes only for the open minded.

The point I was trying to make is that people are people and will resort to who they are regardless of training or they will put their own spin on it. People lie for their own self gain and don't have to be taught. Are children taught to lie other than watching their parents lie? They learn that if they say that the cat did it and get away with it then they are on to a way of life unless they are taught truth and integrity.

According to the logic of mrjarell LEO are taught to lie about everything. What about when I taught my kids to tell their Grandmother that they like that sweater (that could have easily won the ugliest sweater contest) she gave them for Christmas to keep from hurting her feelings. Was I teaching them to lie or be respectful?

Never said cops are trained to lie about everything. You're making **** up to try and fit your agenda.
What I said:

Originally Posted by mrjarrell
Just remember that most cops are trained to lie and it becomes second nature for many of them out there. This is a prime example of a lying liar at work. The less you say to them the better off you are. File your complaints, for all the good it will do. Nothing short of a large lawsuit will make cops like that change their ways.

Most cops ARE trained to lie in order to get you tell them what they want to hear, if straight up asking won't cut it. Just look at the links I posted. They're from a cop site, not just any old site. Then again that wouldn't fit into your worldview, would it? Cops will lie. Get used to it, there are thousands of cases where they've been caught doing it. With little or no repercussions. It's part of the job.

 

[IN_Sheepdog]

Here is my take on this... (Kirk, Guy feel free to jump all over me...)

1. Indiana has no DUTY to inform... However if you are ASKED by the LEO, ie... are you armed? ... you are then required to inform them of same and present the License... To LIE to them in the course of a valid stop is to MISINFORM a Law Enforcement officer, which will get you in trouble for an entirely different set of reasons... none pleasant...

2. If you have a visible firearm, then give them the LTCH as that is the default requirement (necessary documentation) for exempting you FROM illegally carrying a firearm. At that point, any further action by the LEO not related to the infraction, (ie a traffic stop) must cease...

3. Which leads to this... If you have given him the LTCH, then he should not disarm you... I would suggest you mentioning that the SAFEST action for both of you is to leave the firearm in the holster. (assuming you have presented the LTCH...) If he insists on removing your firearm then tell him HE must remove it and you will not touch it in doing so... AND, you will not accept it back. You will also require a full explanation from the Chief of the Department as to why you were disarmed without cause... Yes, you will go without your firearm for awhile, but he also might just think twice before doing so...(yes, this is a gutsy move, but if it is done with equal consideration and not in a confrontational manner, it will likely be thought over a second time... ) This is very dependent on Department policies and their training... not that they are right... but that is what they have learned... There have been many incidences where LEO's are handling an unfamiliar firearm and having a ND as a result. I don't want to be a part of that if I can help it... It wont do anything if it is left in the holster... but iof they insist on removing it, you MUST comply with an instruction, whether it is in our mind illegal or not...

4. Finally as to the cell phone issue. LEO's are VERY aware of citizens recording their actions, especially in the case of an arrest or traffic stop... They do NOT want to be the subject of a YouTube video. The reason for NOT wanting any cell phone use is likely because of this. Therefore it is recommended that this is started BEFORE the stop occurs and placing the phone on the dashboard so at least the conversation is recorded... Alternatively, (if you have an IPHONE, download the FREE (I Like Free!!!) app, ISymDVR and get a sticky mount to the top of your windshield... It allows a continuous looping of recording images and acts like a regular dashcam, which not only would be useful in the case of a traffic stop, but also serves as excellent documentation (Time, speed, direction, location, etc) if you are involved in an accident... It has some drawbacks, but is the most effective one I have found... (also serves as a good visible reminder of your speed based on GPS to avoid getting stopped in the first place!!!) It's not REAL accurate but it could be close enough, especially if you are confident you were NOT speeding to document the same !!
Either way, it would already be running so therefore you would not be handling your cellphone... NO LEO's like to have themselves being recorded, but this would document the conversation at the window, which may or may not be picked up on THEIR Dashcam...

Treat them with Respect and Courtesy... and more than likely you will be treated in a similar manner... remember that they dont KNOW you as an upstanding law abiding type, (except for traffic laws perhaps... ) and therefore they act in such a way as to make sure that THEY are going home to their families safe and sound at the end of the day...


AIAAL, IANYL YMMV--- Although I am a lawyer, I am not YOUR lawyer, your mileage may vary...

 

[Booya]

Here is my take on this... (Kirk, Guy feel free to jump all over me...)

1. Indiana has no DUTY to inform... However if you are ASKED by the LEO, ie... are you armed? ... you are then required to inform them of same and present the License... To LIE to them in the course of a valid stop is to MISINFORM a Law Enforcement officer, which will get you in trouble for an entirely different set of reasons...

i disagree with this entirely. If their questions don't directly relate to their investigation, not only am I not required to answer, but I can say whatever I want really, having broken no laws.

i didn't read your entire post (kids crawling on me), but a quick shows I tend to agree with the rest. I'll read it when I come back!

 

[public servant]

We have some great officers on here and I would honestly love it if any of them came to my town and retrained the entire force here.

Tin licker.

 

[Dead Duck]

i disagree with this entirely. If their questions don't directly relate to their investigation, not only am I not required to answer, but I can say whatever I want really, having broken no laws.

DO NOT LIE TO THE COPS.

They CAN lie to you - don't lie back.
Someone should be along to quote the Code for this shortly. Something about interfering with an investigation or something like that. He asks about a gun, you can go around in that circle with -"There is nothing illegal in my car or on my person". Most experienced officers will see right through this one though. Eventually they will ask the right question.

Those of you that want to inform voluntarily by verbally admitting the guns existence or by handing over your LTCH, you enjoy your delay because that can of worms has now been opened. Not every contact has to be negative when informing. Some cops will just blow you off by handing the license back and saying they don't need it.





Accidentally flashing your gun or pink card can have some interesting effects also.

Once my pink slipped out a bit while putting my drivers license back in my wallet and the cop went ape **** on me. Told me I should always inform immediately on contact and that if his partner (at my passenger door) had seen a gun, this stop would have ended very badly for me.

I took that as a threat but couldn't stop laughing at the time. (he didn't like that) I finally told him to write me up for not informing him. He said he didn't want to have to do that (because he couldn't) and gave me his verbal warning instead. Did he lie? Just ignorant?

If you don't intend on informing, then bury your LTCH deep in your wallet. Don't put it behind your DL or where it will be seen.


Story Moral - Never Flash Your Pink Until They Ask For It!

 

[SteveM4A1]

DO NOT LIE TO THE COPS.

They CAN lie to you - don't lie back.
Someone should be along to quote the Code for this shortly. Something about interfering with an investigation or something like that. He asks about a gun, you can go around in that circle with -"There is nothing illegal in my car or on my person". Most experienced officers will see right through this one though. Eventually they will ask the right question.

Those of you that want to inform voluntarily by verbally admitting the guns existence or by handing over your LTCH, you enjoy your delay because that can of worms has now been opened. Not every contact has to be negative when informing. Some cops will just blow you off by handing the license back and saying they don't need it.





Accidentally flashing your gun or pink card can have some interesting effects also.

Once my pink slipped out a bit while putting my drivers license back in my wallet and the cop went ape **** on me. Told me I should always inform immediately on contact and that if his partner (at my passenger door) had seen a gun, this stop would have ended very badly for me.

I took that as a threat but couldn't stop laughing at the time. (he didn't like that) I finally told him to write me up for not informing him. He said he didn't want to have to do that (because he couldn't) and gave me his verbal warning instead. Did he lie? Just ignorant?

If you don't intend on informing, then bury your LTCH deep in your wallet. Don't put it behind your DL or where it will be seen.


Story Moral - Never Flash Your Pink Until They Ask For It!

Asking about a weapon during a traffic stop is not relevant to an investigation.