Damn CPS!!!! At it again!!

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • 88GT

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 29, 2010
    16,643
    83
    Familyfriendlyville
    Again... your statement assumes your dad was the lowest standard of parenting. Give him more credit than that

    Your dad was a good parent correct? I'm assuming that 88GT is a great parent also... I can tell she loves her kids and puts a lot of time into raising them from her responses here! So why then are you using your parenting techniques as proof that there doesn't need to be a check for bad parenting? You aren't making a coherent argument here... you are simply patting yourselves on the back for not needing CPS or anyone else to step in and parent for you.

    You guys are contradicting yourselves and don't even realize it...unless of course you are silly enough to believe that your great parenting is the lowest standard in the world and all parents are as good or better than yourselves.
    Aha! Now I see the non-connection you are attempting to make. Except that I have never done that. I do not justify my position based on my choices. I justify my decisions based on my belief that parents and only parents should be the only ones involved in raising their children, however that gets done, whatever decisions are made. (Ironically enough, it's a very libertarian opinion. :D) Whether I am the best or worst parent in the world is irrelevant to my argument. For that matter, I would hold this belief even if I had never birthed life into this world. I don't use my parenting choices as the standard. I use the state's non-existent power/authority except that which it has granted to itself at the expense of taking it from the parents as my standard. If it, the state, cannot deprive me of my possessions without due process, then neither should it be able to deprive me of my role as parent, including the physical possession of my children, without due process. And that based on uniform laws of rights of the individuals, not manufactured ones that give the state more authority to "protect" children.

    The irony is that there is little philosophical/function difference in the attempt to ban firearms for the sake of the children and this attempt to justify the existence of CPS for the sake of the children. Both infringe on the rights of the individual in the misguided attempt to prevent bad things from happening. If you can support the one endeavor for that reason, why not the other?
     

    88GT

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 29, 2010
    16,643
    83
    Familyfriendlyville
    I am pretty sure, however, that we could get rid of the entire corrupt agency with no replacements and be better off. Would bad things still happen? Of course. They're happening now. I would wager that these agencies barely scratch the surface in correcting the awful things that happen to children.
    This perfectly highlights the logical fallacy of the arguments for all state-interference in the individual's life. It doesn't solve the problem it was purported to solved and it creates additional ones. And I'm supposed to be all happy, happy, joy, joy that someone can find a single example of a positive outcome? Not hardly. As I mentioned elsewhere, the argument that that entity and only that entity was the only route to that particular outcome is absurd.
     

    steveh_131

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 3, 2009
    10,046
    83
    Porter County
    from a legal standpoint--meaning how my role as parent is seen by the state--my children should be considered chattel. IOW, I should be able to parent as I see fit without a mountain of do-good-ers rushing in to take my kids because they don't approve of my choices. CPS shouldn't be able to arbitrarily construe my refusal to let them enter without a warrant as evidence of hiding abuse and use their emergency powers of kidnapping to make off with my kids. The effort to deprive me of my children and my role as their parent should be as monumentally cumbersome to the state as it is deprive me of any of my other possessions. THAT is the context of my children as chattel. Nothing more. If you can show I'm physically harming my kids within the context of the law when applied to adults (assault, murder, etc; I don't approve of separate laws for separate classes of people), then prosecute me.

    QFT

    We don't have an alternative to CPS because they were put out of business by the state. Competition for the money got too fierce I guess.

    We have created a thriving industry of folks who 'foster' children for profit, and an agency that profits by placing them. How can we even imagine that this is a good thing? How can we even imagine that this is better than the charitable institutions and families that could exist in its absence?
     

    88GT

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 29, 2010
    16,643
    83
    Familyfriendlyville
    If you like, we could make a list of the functions of CPS and discuss which should be done away with and which should be reassigned. I'm not sure that I have all of the answers to this question, but it would make for an interesting discussion.
    I intended this to be a part of the other response.

    I think all those vouching for the existence of CPS should do exactly that. And in answer to Kirk's question, what did the courts do prior to the state taking over the welfare institutions in this country? We went through nearly 150 years of independence before the state take-over of child welfare institutions. Of course, I'd like to see some numbers on actual number of child welfare cases that came before the courts using the advent of the state-controlled child welfare institution as a before/after delineation. I'd be willing to bet that the actual incidence of court involvement in child welfare cases was negligent prior to the state institutions coming into existence. Because back then the state recognized the supremacy of the parental role over the state. My opinion was the norm.
     

    lucky4034

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jan 14, 2012
    3,789
    48
    Incorrect...He should have been paid to teach child rearing classes,and write books instead of fools like Dr.Spock. We need to engender a feeling of responsibility in parents again,for the behavior of their children.The decline of our culture is evident in children who are simply an unwanted side effect of sexual pleasure,or the whim of a female who could not afford a puppy.

    I don't disagree with this... but what happens when that female has a puppy and subjects it to unlivable conditions? Then what? We allow the child to suffer... go hungry... or die from disease etc.
     

    lucky4034

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jan 14, 2012
    3,789
    48
    If you can show I'm physically harming my kids within the context of the law when applied to adults (assault, murder, etc; I don't approve of separate laws for separate classes of people), then prosecute me.

    You spank your kids? Could you be prosecuted for assault for spanking me?
     

    traderdan

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 20, 2009
    2,016
    48
    Martinsville
    I don't disagree with this... but what happens when that female has a puppy and subjects it to unlivable conditions? Then what? We allow the child to suffer... go hungry... or die from disease etc.

    We must be SURE,very SURE that the system we allow to exist to deal with these problems are open to public scrutiny,and people with wisdom and compassion must be making the every day decisions. There is an emotional effect in the separation of a child from his parent that is immeasurable. Taking a puppy away from its owner is a poor comparison.
     

    lucky4034

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jan 14, 2012
    3,789
    48
    We must be SURE,very SURE that the system we allow to exist to deal with these problems are open to public scrutiny,and people with wisdom and compassion must be making the every day decisions. There is an emotional effect in the separation of a child from his parent that is immeasurable. Taking a puppy away from its owner is a poor comparison.

    Then you and I completely agree. Parents should be given plenty of leeway to raise their children the way they see fit... but children have some rights that need to respected and once those rights are grossly violated, there needs to be a mechanism in play that can either prevent parents from mistreating their children or remove children from an overly oppressive environment. If a parent breaks a law... there must be a place where the child is overseen.

    That mechanism also needs some sort of oversight and accountability for its decision making.
     

    PaulJF

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    May 3, 2010
    284
    34
    Linden
    Then you and I completely agree. Parents should be given plenty of leeway to raise their children the way they see fit... but children have some rights that need to respected and once those rights are grossly violated, there needs to be a mechanism in play that can either prevent parents from mistreating their children or remove children from an overly oppressive environment. If a parent breaks a law... there must be a place where the child is overseen.

    That mechanism also needs some sort of oversight and accountability for its decision making.

    Children have rights, except the right to life , according to you. Need I pull up your pro abortion posts?
     

    lucky4034

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jan 14, 2012
    3,789
    48
    Children have rights, except the right to life , according to you. Need I pull up your pro abortion posts?


    LMFAO... don't even try that **** with me. I already beat ya to it about 3 pages back bud.


    On INGO kids don't have rights and should not be protected unless they are undeveloped fetuses... then they have all rights. Once they take that first breath they then become 100% expendable at the wish of whomever decided to give birth.

    Thats a two way street that you can't manipulate to help your argument... but if you want to lose that argument, give it your best shot, because even my stance on abortion lends itself to the stance I have on this issue. That argument helps me... not you.
     

    PaulJF

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    May 3, 2010
    284
    34
    Linden
    I just find it ironic that those who drone on and on about children's rights are the very ones that think children may be slaughtered, as long as they are still in the womb.
     

    PaulJF

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    May 3, 2010
    284
    34
    Linden
    LMFAO... don't even try that **** with me. I already beat ya to it about 3 pages back bud.




    Thats a two way street that you can't manipulate to help your argument... but if you want to lose that argument, give it your best shot, because even my stance on abortion lends itself to the stance I have on this issue. That argument helps me... not you.

    I haven't argued one way or the other on the issue of parental rights vs. Gov. intervention. You just assume since I am anti abortion, I must think it is OK to pop out little slaves.
     

    traderdan

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 20, 2009
    2,016
    48
    Martinsville
    I just find it ironic that those who drone on and on about children's rights are the very ones that think children may be slaughtered, as long as they are still in the womb.

    I have also observed this...Pseudo-intellectuals that are sure that it takes a village to raise a child.
     

    lucky4034

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jan 14, 2012
    3,789
    48
    I haven't argued one way or the other on the issue of parental rights vs. Gov. intervention. You just assume since I am anti abortion, I must think it is OK to pop out little slaves.


    I don't know your abortion stance and don't care... it doesn't have much bearing on this conversation but since you asked, I'd be happy to connect the dots in a manner that supports my stance here.
     

    lucky4034

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jan 14, 2012
    3,789
    48
    I have also observed this...Pseudo-intellectuals that are sure that it takes a village to raise a child.

    I don't see anyone building this straw man either. No one says it takes a village to raise EVERY CHILD. I'm not working on an all or nothing stance like you are. I'm simply stating that there are situations that call for intervention.

    Similar to the way we need a police force... we need a mechanism that protects children from grossly unfit parents. The problem isn't that police exist or that CPS exists... the problem is that they aren't well defined, checked properly and always held accountable. This is the reason some cops make very poor decisions at an increasingly consistent rate and why CPS ****ups are becoming more and more prevalent. No one is handing out proper repercussions for authoritarian missteps.

    Power unchecked is power abused.
     

    Kirk Freeman

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Mar 9, 2008
    48,287
    113
    Lafayette, Indiana
    If you like, we could make a list of the functions of CPS and discuss which should be done away with and which should be reassigned. I'm not sure that I have all of the answers to this question, but it would make for an interesting discussion.

    Capital idea.

    DCS administers Title IV-D. Pursues CHINS and TPRs. It also conducts background checks.

    I think if you did away with DCS then the court would appoint GALs and instead of one DCS with staff attorneys you would instead have dozens of DCSs in the form of appointed GALs (all billing the county). I fear that you may abolish one DCS to have hudnreds of them (in bigger counties) rise up as replacements.

    What would you abolish and implement, Steve?
     

    Kirk Freeman

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Mar 9, 2008
    48,287
    113
    Lafayette, Indiana
    As an aside, IME, the police want very little to do with DCS matters/cases. Often there is overlap, but to the police it is dog poo that they do not want to step in (other people's children) but are forced to do so pursuant to internal regulations.
     

    steveh_131

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 3, 2009
    10,046
    83
    Porter County
    Capital idea.

    DCS administers Title IV-D. Pursues CHINS and TPRs. It also conducts background checks.

    I think if you did away with DCS then the court would appoint GALs and instead of one DCS with staff attorneys you would instead have dozens of DCSs in the form of appointed GALs (all billing the county). I fear that you may abolish one DCS to have hudnreds of them (in bigger counties) rise up as replacements.

    What would you abolish and implement, Steve?

    I think you are misunderstanding my question.

    Let's say we abolished it. What situations would arise that our existing legal system couldn't handle?

    The big issue that I can see is placing children whose parents have been arrested or have died into new temporary or permanent homes. I am open to discussion of the best way to handle that.

    But what else? What other functions must be replaced, that can't already be handled by the existing legal system?
     

    lucky4034

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jan 14, 2012
    3,789
    48
    I think you are misunderstanding my question.

    Let's say we abolished it. What situations would arise that our existing legal system couldn't handle?

    The big issue that I can see is placing children whose parents have been arrested or have died into new temporary or permanent homes. I am open to discussion of the best way to handle that.

    But what else? What other functions must be replaced, that can't already be handled by the existing legal system?

    The existing legal system is too slow... CPS from my estimation seems to be the mechanism used to speed up the process. They are the medium that exists to make on sight decisions. It takes 6 months to go to court for a DUI... some kids don't have 6 months.
     
    Top Bottom