custom pistols versus lawsuit

[Johnny C]

Folks have stated that using hand loads in a defensive pistol is a no-no, how about a custom or modified pistol?
What if a gunsmith modified it and not me?
I have a Hi-Power with the mag safety removed and was wondering if this could be considered "reckless" by a prosecutor if it was used in a defensive situation.

Thanks,
Johnny C

 

[HoughMade]

Who knows. However if you accidentally shoot someone because of the mag disconnect being removed....yeah, that'll be an issue.

If you intentionally shoot someone and the mag disconnect didn't have anything to do with it, prosecutors will make hay where they can, but I don't see it being a big issue. My M&P came without a mag disconnect.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I have a Hi-Power with the mag safety removed and was wondering if this could be considered "reckless" by a prosecutor if it was used in a defensive situation.

Let's wargame it out: What does removal of the mag safety have to do with whether or not you had a REAL GOOD reason to point a gun at a fellow human being?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Who knows. However if you accidentally shoot someone because of the mag disconnect being removed....yeah, that'll be an issue.

If you intentionally shoot someone and the mag disconnect didn't have anything to do with it, prosecutors will make hay where they can, but I don't see it being a big issue. My M&P came without a mag disconnect.

Let's wargame it out: What does removal of the mag safety have to do with whether or not you had a REAL GOOD reason to point a gun at a fellow human being?

Wouldn't where this hypothetical case took place, what the politics are in regards to gun ownership, potential jury pool, and with what else about the client they could use such gun modifications/customizations to paint a certain kind of picture?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Locally, it will be a non-issue in a good shoot as far as criminal charges go. In a marginal shoot where you were reckless, potentially could be used to show you are a reckless person. Easily answered as Hough points out, but could come up.

Civil suits are outside my area of expertise, but as an educated guess...accidentally shoot someone after dropping the magazine and pulling the trigger, the scenario the mag disconnect is designed to prevent, probably going to increase liability and eventual payout.

 

[sig-man]

I have always been concerned about this as well. That is why I chose to purchase and carry some plastic fantastic guns. Modifications may or may not be an issue in court, but I am not going to take that chance. Especially when I can purchase so many reliable guns for such an affordable price. Another issue is, and I am just going by rumors I have heard, is that you will lose the gun during the process and will not get it back until all criminal proceedings are over. I have heard stories of people struggling to get their property returned to them even after that. Once again these are stories I have heard, no knowledge on their validity, but I am not going to take the chance with a high end 1911. I purchased a Glock and shield for personal protection. I love my 1911's and CZ's on the range but carry my plastic.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Another issue is, and I am just going by rumors I have heard, is that you will lose the gun during the process and will not get it back until all criminal proceedings are over. I have heard stories of people struggling to get their property returned to them even after that.

True, and some people may still have them held after that because of civil suits.

 

[Route 45]

Folks have stated that using hand loads in a defensive pistol is a no-no, how about a custom or modified pistol?
What if a gunsmith modified it and not me?
I have a Hi-Power with the mag safety removed and was wondering if this could be considered "reckless" by a prosecutor if it was used in a defensive situation.

Thanks,
Johnny C

If it's a righteous defensive shooting, why are you being prosecuted?

 

[PRasko]

So, ermm... No ones going to bring up that cops dust cover that got him indicted?

 

[1mil-high]

So, ermm... No ones going to bring up that cops dust cover that got him indicted?

I don't think his dust cover is what got him indicted. I believe there is an entire thread talking about that topic however. This is more about mechanical alterations and liability

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So, ermm... No ones going to bring up that cops dust cover that got him indicted?

That's not what got him indicted.

 

[88E30M50]

Another issue is, and I am just going by rumors I have heard, is that you will lose the gun during the process and will not get it back until all criminal proceedings are over. I have heard stories of people struggling to get their property returned to them even after that. Once again these are stories I have heard, no knowledge on their validity, but I am not going to take the chance with a high end 1911. I purchased a Glock and shield for personal protection. I love my 1911's and CZ's on the range but carry my plastic.

True, and some people may still have them held after that because of civil suits.

Yet another reason to leave the custom, one of a kind Delta Elite with mammoth ivory grips at home and carry the trusty old G23. I don't imagine that the custom gun would be treated well in the evidence locker. Heck, the folks keeping it would probably not even pull it out every 6 months to was the grips.

The beauty of carrying a Glock is that if you lose one to an evidence locker in a good shoot, you can stop by your LGS and replace it in an hour.

On the issue of mods, I wonder if a very light trigger might cause you grief if there was some doubt about whether you pulled the trigger intentionally or if it was a ND due to adrenaline and stress?

 

[Hopper]

On the issue of mods, I wonder if a very light trigger might cause you grief if there was some doubt about whether you pulled the trigger intentionally or if it was a ND due to adrenaline and stress?

I've wondered this very thing, and hear conflicting information. I've heard "a good shoot is a good shoot", the idea that a better trigger makes you a safer and more accurate shot, less likely to flinch/miss your target. On the other hand, I've heard that trigger mods could be used against you in the way you described above, or have a prosecutor paint you as having some kind of lust for killing.

My middle ground keeps pointing to my Walther PPQ. It's completely stock save for a FO front sight to help my older eyes more readily acquire my target. And, even though mine is an M1, it's fairly easily replaceable.

 

[Hookeye]

Mag disco yanked for better trigger pull............more accurate shot.
That means you went out of your way to insure the safety of bystanders.
Reloads?
You can buy commercial reloaded ammo.
Many people reload.
It's not a sin.
Now inscribing nasty things on your cases/bullets or filling hollowpoints with cynanide............proly spin it for bad.
But using commercial components.......nobody gives a flip.

 

[churchmouse]

Let's wargame it out: What does removal of the mag safety have to do with whether or not you had a REAL GOOD reason to point a gun at a fellow human being?

NADA...................
Same with modified ignition controls..............
Custom barrel..............
And on and on.

Now, if you shoot somebody due to an insanely light trigger........well

 

[BE Mike]

A good defense attorney is going to use anything he can to put up a smoke and mirrors screen. He wants to confuse the jurors and lead them away from the fundamental issues. The average juror probably knows nothing of guns and/ or has a negative view of guns and gun owners. That being said, a good expert witness can defuse the paper tiger defense. Somebody said that every bullet has a law suit attached. Even a totally justified shooting can have the effect of having court actions drag on for years, not only costing one thousands, upon thousands of dollars worth of legal defense, but causing mental anguish and stress. It's still better than being in jail or six feet under.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've wondered this very thing, and hear conflicting information. I've heard "a good shoot is a good shoot", the idea that a better trigger makes you a safer and more accurate shot, less likely to flinch/miss your target. On the other hand, I've heard that trigger mods could be used against you in the way you described above, or have a prosecutor paint you as having some kind of lust for killing.

My middle ground keeps pointing to my Walther PPQ. It's completely stock save for a FO front sight to help my older eyes more readily acquire my target. And, even though mine is an M1, it's fairly easily replaceable.

A good shoot is a good shoot, but you can't accidentally good shoot someone. The lighter the trigger, the less leeway you have for making an error before an AD results...and that may end up being a bad shoot. If you accidentally shoot somebody, that light trigger may come back to haunt you.

 

[Alamo]

Specifically to the Hi Power, removing the magazine disconnect is really a standard modification to that pistol, and IMHO probably one of the most defensible modifications -- altho you may have to pay to have an expert come testify why mag disconnects are a long-lived bad idea.

As others said, if it is a good shoot and the police and the DA recognize it as a good shoot, then it should not come into play. If it is not obvious, or it's new jersey or Massachusetts, then seeming small details can come into play. Massad Ayoob writes about these issues (mods, light triggers, home reloads) a lot, and/but he has worked for a long time in an environment where the legal system is heavily weighted against gun owners in general, self-defense in general, and self-defense with firearms specifically. Not as likely to be a problem in Indiana.