Coronovirus IV

[BugI02]

Conservatives 2009: Obama wants death panels so old people and sick people won’t get healthcare.

Conservatives 2020: COVID-19 only kills old people and sick people, so what’s the big deal?

...it pains me that this is what many people on my side of the political spectrum have become.

"It's the economy, stupid"

*.*

 

[T.Lex]

Conservatives 2009: Obama wants death panels so old people and sick people won’t get healthcare.

Conservatives 2020: COVID-19 only kills old people and sick people, so what’s the big deal?

...it pains me that this is what many people on my side of the political spectrum have become.

The Rep Death Panel has ruled: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to HoughMade again."

 

[jamil]

Conservatives 2009: Obama wants death panels so old people and sick people won’t get healthcare.

Conservatives 2020: COVID-19 only kills old people and sick people, so what’s the big deal?

...it pains me that this is what many people on my side of the political spectrum have become.

If that’s what you’ve distilled the whole of what they saying into, I guess I can’t blame you for feeling pain. But could it be that what you’ve distilled is actually straw? Maybe you don’t need to feel such animosity. Maybe you’re saying they’re saying things they aren’t saying.

 

[eldirector]

Maybe, if you are old or sickly, you should take extra precautions.

Maybe, if you are not old or sickly, you should live your life as you see fit.

Maybe, either way, it isn't the .gov who should be making that choice for you.

 

[JettaKnight]

The Rep Death Panel has ruled: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to HoughMade again."

Once again, I gotta do your dirty work.

 

[JettaKnight]

Maybe, if you are old or sickly, you should take extra precautions.

Maybe, if you are not old or sickly, you should live your life as you see fit.

Maybe, either way, it isn't the .gov who should be making that choice for you.

So, society should?


There's a lot saying, "If your old and sick, stay home; I can't be bothered to wear a mask."

 

[eldirector]

So, society should?


There's a lot saying, "If your old and sick, stay home; I can't be bothered to wear a mask."

If you are that concerned with dying, maybe you SHOULD stay home?

My own father has health concerns, and has chosen to stay pretty well isolated thus far. I respect that, and certainly don't try to put him at additional risk.

But, that said, why should you and I be punished because someone else intentionally puts themselves at (what they consider a) risk?

 

[HoughMade]

If that’s what you’ve distilled the whole of what they saying into, I guess I can’t blame you for feeling pain. But could it be that what you’ve distilled is actually straw? Maybe you don’t need to feel such animosity. Maybe you’re saying they’re saying things they aren’t saying.

I was referring to a specific post that made the rounds...and came here, over the weekend for me.

If I missed something, please break it down for me.

*.*

I get it...the economy.

"Death panels" were safe because we could accuse a political opponent of not caring about the sick and infirm for our own political gain and didn't really affect us, personally.

The current situation is different because it costs us something, to a greater or lesser extent and saying: "well heck, only old and sick people are affected...so what?" supports our political position.

The money makes all the difference.

 

[two70]

Conservatives 2009: Obama wants death panels so old people and sick people won’t get healthcare.

Conservatives 2020: COVID-19 only kills old people and sick people, so what’s the big deal?

...it pains me that this is what many people on my side of the political spectrum have become.

Are you sure you're on the side you think you are here? This is a good example of the kind of emotional "reasoning" that passes for logic on the left. The attempt at misrepresenting and conflating two completely disparate issues while trying to assert moral superiority is part and parcel as well.

 

[HoughMade]

Are you sure you're on the side you think you are here? This is a good example of the kind of emotional "reasoning" that passes for logic on the left. The attempt at misrepresenting and conflating two completely disparate issues while trying to assert moral superiority is part and parcel as well.

I'll say it again. What is the purpose of saying that COVID only killed 9,000 people (not true) and that it only kills the sick and old? What is the point? What am I missing?

 

[T.Lex]

I'll say it again. What is the purpose of saying that COVID only killed 9,000 people (not true) and that it only kills the sick and old? What is the point? What am I missing?

You're missing the part where we have to pick sides. Or have them assigned to us.

 

[chipbennett]

Reaching that conclusion from that information is....incorrect.

That a person had multiple issues that contributed to death does not mean that COVID was not a cause of death or that they would have died at the time they did if they did not have COVID.

It’s like saying that when a person has a heart attack and they also have chronic heart failure that contributed to their demise after the heart attack, since they had preexisting heart failure (which people can live with for years) they did not die from the heart attack. Incorrect. They both contributed, but the person would not have died at that time but-for the heart attack.

Oh, and this ignores every negative COVID outcome except death, and there are several.

It is the viral “downplay COVID” post of the day. I’ve seen it everywhere.

Which, again, is why retrospective analysis of excess mortality for 2020, if performed objectively, will be instructive. If the difference in mortality rate for those comorbidities in 2020 is not statistically significant when compared to other years, then there will be evidence that COVID did not drive additional deaths among those with said comorbidities. If, however, there is statistical significance in the difference in mortality rate, then we can assess/estimate the impact of COVID based on the magnitude of that difference.

All of that analysis is premature right now, though. I have my suspicions, but will wait for the data.

 

[chipbennett]

Conservatives 2009: Obama wants death panels so old people and sick people won’t get healthcare.

Conservatives 2020: COVID-19 only kills old people and sick people, so what’s the big deal?

...it pains me that this is what many people on my side of the political spectrum have become.

You have fully entered Straw Man Argument territory here.

It's not, "so what's the big deal?" It is, "why kill the economic livelihood of those not at risk instead of acting to protecting those at risk?"
It's not, "so what's the big deal?" It is, "why force isolation and social distancing on those not at risk instead of acting to protecting those at risk?"
It's not, "so what's the big deal?" It is, "why force mask-wearing on those not at risk instead of acting to protecting those at risk?"

 

[chipbennett]

Maybe, if you are old or sickly, you should take extra precautions.

Maybe, if you are not old or sickly, you should live your life as you see fit.

Maybe, either way, it isn't the .gov who should be making that choice for you.

Repped, and amen.

 

[chipbennett]

So, society should?


There's a lot saying, "If your old and sick, stay home; I can't be bothered to wear a mask."

Yes... and?

Appeal to emotion is logical fallacy.

Are we not each responsible for mitigating our own unique risks of participating in life and society? Are there not ample, societal means for the "old and sick" to mitigate risk (such as curbside pickup, delivery, etc.)? There are many immunocompromised people in this country (autoimmune disorders, cancer patients, etc.); do we shut down entire economies and force isolation and social distancing for them? Why not? And why do we not do so for them, yet do so for Covid?

 

[chipbennett]

I'll say it again. What is the purpose of saying that COVID only killed 9,000 people (not true) and that it only kills the sick and old? What is the point? What am I missing?

What is the point? To emphasize the sensationalized and overblown narrative driven by Democrats, the media (but I repeat myself...), and various governments and government agencies. To point out that those pushing the narrative care more about waving the bloody shirt to score political points (or to drive public policy) than they do about objective, dispassionate search for truth. To provide support for the claim that Covid numbers have been overblown and/or outright fabricated.

None of those points demonstrates or implies an inherent lack of care for the elderly or others at risk with respect to Covid.

 

[jamil]

I was referring to a specific post that made the rounds...and came here, over the weekend for me.

If I missed something, please break it down for me.

Maybe I missed the post. Link?

 

[JettaKnight]

Are you sure you're on the side you think you are here? This is a good example of the kind of emotional "reasoning" that passes for logic on the left. The attempt at misrepresenting and conflating two completely disparate issues while trying to assert moral superiority is part and parcel as well.

This last year, I have realized that emotional reasoning is not the exclusive domain of the left.

 

[SwikLS]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/...9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q

 

[T.Lex]

If that’s what you’ve distilled the whole of what they saying into, I guess I can’t blame you for feeling pain. But could it be that what you’ve distilled is actually straw? Maybe you don’t need to feel such animosity. Maybe you’re saying they’re saying things they aren’t saying.

I see HM's point as a dramatic example of the extremes. Kinda like those memes that compare the least attractive people on the Left to the most attractive people on the Right. Neither sample is intended to be comprehensive, nor even a representative sample. The examples are selected for dramatic effect.

It doesn't change the "truth" of the statement - those people are either Left/Right unattractive/attractive. It is also a relatively accurate, if narrow, reflection in the evolution of rhetoric around the health care debate.