Cleveland applies battlefield survival tactics to local police depts & SWAT teams

[rambone]

Its getting hard to deny that police are being militarized all over the country.

Now if you call for an ambulance and you may have guys with automatic weapons come clear your house first.

​

Cleveland: New company aims to 'protect the protectors'

(article quote removed in compliance with new rule, as referenced in post #2)

 

[BloodEclipse]

you need to read this

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ents/103741-must_read_two_new_ingo_rules.html

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Based on the content of the article , I have no problem with the training .

IMO , I think every policeman should be trained to at least an EMT-B level and carry an IFAK .

Traditionally , the civilian medic's job is made harder due to the fact that they have to wait around the block or wherever according to local SOP's for the police to clear the area of threats first .

After all , they're there seconds after the incident occurs instead of the minutes it take ALS to arrive .

It just makes sense in today's society when they (police / medics) never know when or where the next bank robbery or Columbine will happen .

I think back to the bank of America robbery and the one officer pinned down under the tree slowly fading as his dispatch was talking to him .

How many more people could be saved if every policeman had BLS training ? Or , every hospital or ambulance service had a tactical medic on hand ?

 

[Denny347]

Some of that "battlefield" training saved a friend when he was shot in the head, so it is fine with me. I carry a med kit in my class C uniform for such events. Why would this be controversial?

 

[BloodEclipse]

Some of that "battlefield" training saved a friend when he was shot in the head, so it is fine with me. I carry a med kit in my class C uniform for such events. Why would this be controversial?

I think it is more of a concern training EMTs to be SWAT than it is training SWAT team members to have EMT skills. I think that was the OP's concern.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

ram, how is any of this controversial?

So this private outfit trains up police medics. The SRT brings along a medic/corpse-man (done in honour of our President) who may be able to help without waiting for the blood box. So what?

If we are going to have police, then training then up in emergency first aid (not just stabbings or gsw, but car wrecks, heart attacks, inter alia) should be a priority and an efficient use of public funds.

 

[nawainwright]

It seems to me that its a "free-market" solution to a problem. I'd like to see more privatized solutions personally. If we had companies that bid for some of these services to town councils we would see an end to entitlement pension programs.

 

[45calibre]

you need to read this

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ents/103741-must_read_two_new_ingo_rules.html

i was thinking the same thing.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

IPD integrated volunteer paramedics into their SWAT operations prior to 2002 and a Marion County Sheriff's Deputy who was trained as a First Responder was instrumental in saving 3 lives after a serious helicopter accident in 1997. I can't see a downside to it.

You could justifiably compare SWAT tactics to the TTPs used by military troops to clear buildings in combat, but it looks to me like that's more of a transfer from police operations to combat operations than the other way around.

 

[jbombelli]

I don't have a prpblem with police getting EMT training. Where my problem would come in is in what the OP opined in the first part of the post.

If I call 911 for an ambulance, I need an ambulance. I don't need a SWAT team showing up to clear the property before an ambulance is dispatched. But I don't think that's what the article is actually saying.

 

[GPD177]

What we do on our team is to have two members of our fire department that are well trained paramedics be a part of the team. They are dressed and equipped with uniforms and armor as we are, but it says medic instead of police. They carry medic gear instead of the stuff we carry. I have seen them in action on everything from scrapes and bruises, broken ankles, burns from flashbangs all the way up to gunshots. I am more than thrilled to have their level of expertise on sight and ready to go if I ever need it.

 

[lashicoN]

Huh...so I'm the only other one who sees an enormous problem with this?

Next time you call a "Medic" (who will eventually be replaced by Police Officers with medical training if this catches on) don't complain when you're hauled off in an ambulance and the police officers hang around your house, go through your closet, use your keys to open up your ammo cans, steal all of your firearms, ammunition, and whatever else they want and then refuse to give it back to you until you can prove to them that you are mentally stable.

Meanwhile, they probably doped you up enough on the ambo ride that you won't be mentally stable when they give you a psych evaluation.

Yes, yes, I know I sound like a crazy paranoid tin-foil dealer. I don't care, because the government is more than capable of doing all of these things I've stated, in fact they have done most of these things already. I'll wear my tin-foil hat, you guys can continue to wear your blinders. We'll all get along great. Further expansion, especially into more of a military-type mind set is not what we need or should want from our local LEOs.

 

[MilitaryArms]

The police around the country are militarizing. While I agree this article isn't necessarily the result of such militarization, I still do have a problem with police militarizing in general.

Why? Because more and more the police are adopting the "us vs. them" mindset of a combat soldier. They are starting to view the citizens they're tasked with protecting as enemy combatants... and the end result is abuse of power.

Take this as an example:

YouTube - ‪Miami Police Shot Protester, then laugh about it.‬‎

In that video you have a gathering of officers laughing about the abuse of power carried out against an unarmed civilian in the street. If it weren't for the presence of a video camera, this abuse of power (and the subsequent demonstration of the enemy combatant mindset) would have gone unchecked.

We need to keep in mind that after the Civil War the Posse Comintatus Act purposely prohibited our government from using the military to police the citizens due to wide spread abuses. Now, here we sit 132 years later and what do I see? I see nearly every major police department (and most smaller departments) arming, training and behaving as a military force right down to the military style clothing which has become so fashionable.

We need to be mindful of this and not allow it to get out of hand.

 

[XMil]

In that video you have a gathering of officers laughing about the abuse of power carried out against an unarmed civilian in the street.

Well I'll be darned, they got all the "few bad apples" in one place at the same time again.

 

[abrumlev]

I plan on finishing up my EMT-B this year. My girlfriend is certified and it could potentially be a great skill to have. I'm already a professional rescuer. Step between first responder and EMT-B

 

[Bill of Rights]

Huh...so I'm the only other one who sees an enormous problem with this?

Next time you call a "Medic" (who will eventually be replaced by Police Officers with medical training if this catches on) don't complain when you're hauled off in an ambulance and the police officers hang around your house, go through your closet, use your keys to open up your ammo cans, steal all of your firearms, ammunition, and whatever else they want and then refuse to give it back to you until you can prove to them that you are mentally stable.

Meanwhile, they probably doped you up enough on the ambo ride that you won't be mentally stable when they give you a psych evaluation.

Yes, yes, I know I sound like a crazy paranoid tin-foil dealer. I don't care, because the government is more than capable of doing all of these things I've stated, in fact they have done most of these things already. I'll wear my tin-foil hat, you guys can continue to wear your blinders. We'll all get along great. Further expansion, especially into more of a military-type mind set is not what we need or should want from our local LEOs.

While it is not the paradigm here in Indiana, there are some places around this country that refer to 911 as calling "a police ambulance". Here, you find mostly dual-service fire, third-service municipal, or third service private, but this is not the case everywhere. Yes, there are the bad apples, and yes, Xmil, that's what they are. For every video, every print story, and even every unreported story of an abuse of power, how many police interactions are there every day that don't result in abuse of power, someone getting proned out to eat concrete, or worse? No, you don't know, no one does, but if there are, say, 100 officers on a department and that department gets 100 complaints a year, that means that the average is that each officer is getting one complaint a year. If they have those quotas that everyone likes to complain about that say each officer must give 60 citations a month, that's 6000 contacts a month exclusive of investigations, drunk calls, etc., or 72000 a year. Note that these figures are complete guesswork, but I'd be surprised if our local LEOs would not confirm them as low guesses, so one complaint out of 800 contacts (that figuring an extra 8000 contacts for an entire department for a whole year, not related to traffic incidents) is not horrible numbers. They're not good numbers either, but it's hardly the epidemic you seem to be making it out to be.

Put another way... much as 9,999,970 firearms were not used in criminal acts yesterday, so too, most police officers were not abusive of the public trust either.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[lashicoN]

The "few bad apples" defense in no defense, Bill. Sorry, but if I murdered even ONE person throughout my entire life and got caught, the Judge isn't going to let me off the hook when I say "But, look at all the people I met and didn't kill, your honor."

 

[Bill of Rights]

The "few bad apples" defense in no defense, Bill. Sorry, but if I murdered even ONE person throughout my entire life and got caught, the Judge isn't going to let me off the hook when I say "But, look at all the people I met and didn't kill, your honor."

We're not, at least in most cases, talking about murders, though.

Look, I don't deny that there is corruption amongst police ranks. There is also corruption in many, many other places. My experience with the police officers I know is that they are, to a person, absolutely dedicated to the rule of law and to the protection of the people who employ them. Your experience may differ.

What this comes down to is that when a LEO commits a crime, THAT LEO should be held accountable for his or her actions, just as when anyone else commits a crime, that person should be similarly held accountable. What should absolutely not happen is that ALL LEOs should be held to blame for the actions of one, ten, or a hundred, any more than ALL non-LEOs should be held accountable for the actions of one, ten, or a hundred.

Or are you saying that police should not only be held to a higher standard, but that the standard they should be held to should be so impossibly high that no one other than God Him/Herself can meet it?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[lashicoN]

I'm not completely sure what we're in disagreement about here. I agree that corruption exists in humans, and human beings become police officers, therefore some police officers (as it is with any other profession) will be corrupt. I don't believe they all are. Most of the officers I've met are very nice people, but they tend to lean mostly on the arrogant side, which certainly isn't nor shouldn't be a crime.

I too believe we should punish the individual. Kel-Tec shouldn't be sued when someone uses their product in an illegal way and police departments shouldn't be sued when an individual officer does something illegal. The lawsuits should come when the commanding officers refuse to teach their officers the laws or encourage breaking the law, like the case in IL that I referenced earlier.

I do, however, believe that LEOs should be held to a higher standard, absolutely. Not everyone gets to speed when they want, use their turn signal when they want, harass who they want, or whip out their gun and point it at whoever they want with zero repercussions. When a LEO, who in entrusted with all this power, abuses his power, he should be punished accordingly. I'm a little radical though, as if you couldn't tell by my post history. I also believe that when a Judge molests our system of justice he/she should be tarred, feather, and hanged shortly after for the gross disservice to our country and to our country's trust in our justice system. With great power, comes great punishment in the event of an abuse of that power.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Huh...so I'm the only other one who sees an enormous problem with this?

Next time you call a "Medic" (who will eventually be replaced by Police Officers with medical training if this catches on) don't complain when you're hauled off in an ambulance and the police officers hang around your house, go through your closet, use your keys to open up your ammo cans, steal all of your firearms, ammunition, and whatever else they want and then refuse to give it back to you until you can prove to them that you are mentally stable.

Meanwhile, they probably doped you up enough on the ambo ride that you won't be mentally stable when they give you a psych evaluation.

Yes, yes, I know I sound like a crazy paranoid tin-foil dealer. I don't care, because the government is more than capable of doing all of these things I've stated, in fact they have done most of these things already. I'll wear my tin-foil hat, you guys can continue to wear your blinders. We'll all get along great. Further expansion, especially into more of a military-type mind set is not what we need or should want from our local LEOs.

It appears to me that where we disagree is based in your post quoted above. Yes, I know that what you describe did happen once that was discussed on here. I also know that a) some places in the country, calling for an ambulance already gets you police officers doing the job, just as in other places, you get fire personnel. Where I work, you get EMTs and medics not connected to either. That said, I have a coworker who currently moonlights as a police officer also. We've discussed this issue as well as others related to possible conflicts of interest and he was very clear: When he's wearing a blue uniform, he defers on medical care to people wearing the other uniform if we're present. If none are around, he does what is needed to protect and serve, whether that means police or medical work. Conversely, when he's wearing the same uniform I do, what he sees and learns is privileged under HIPAA, meaning that if he has to return to a residence as a cop after he's been there as an EMT, he has to develop PC as a cop for anything he needs to investigate.

Now... I'm not under the illusion that he would still have the presumption of truth in court that I might not, meaning that if he went to seek a warrant as a cop, he technically has the ability to lie and claim he learned this or that as a cop and not as an EMT, but the only way around that is either for there to be no LEOs or for there to be more laws that prevent someone who works as a LEO from doing any other job. I am not in favor of either solution and I don't imagine you are either.

One additional point: Don't presume that someone who is a professional paramedic (the only people who have access to the "dope" you referred to) is going to be willing to throw away his/her profession so easily. Yes, I have access right this minute (I'm at work) to narcotics, benzodiazepines, paralytics, and anesthetics, but my partner (who is not a medic) does not have that access. Those medications are kept under multiple locks and only I or my service director can access the ones I signed for when I came on shift until I sign them over to someone else. The process is easy, but being one of the people who takes part in it is not. A few guns or a few boxes of ammo are not worth throwing away years of training and experience for a single bust.

Keep your tinfoil, if you like. Yeah, there are times I wear it, too, but this is a situation where that use is unwarranted.... and having a medic at a SWAT scene is a good idea for everyone involved.

Now we just need to reduce the horrible overuse of SWAT with their "dynamic entries" for such things as the serving of warrants.



Blessings,
Bill