CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: The "Science -vs- Religion" debate...

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  • CathyInBlue

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    Doc: Eyes and nerves need each other simultaneously for either of them to exist. Therefore, they couldn't possibly have evolved.

    Cathy: a baby develops eyes and nerves simultaneously.
    If both can develope simultaneously in utero, then there's nothing preventing them from evolving together over millions of years from primitive forms to modern forms across thousands of intermediary species and hundreds of thousands of individual mutations. Q.E.D.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    I explained both the how, electro-chemistry, as well as the why, self-perpetuation. If the self-perpetuating electro-chemical reactions stop, the organism enters the last phase of its existence, known as composting, wherein other chemical reactions take over, which breaks down all of the far more intricate and complex chemicals into smaller bits that other living things called plants or fungi can then ingest in their own life processes.

    Even people who feel they have nothing to live for tend to look both ways when crossing the street. Why? Self-preservation, another way of saying self-perpetuation.

    No, you didn't explain the "why". You just expanded on the how. "Why" does something self-perpetuate? "Why" does a living organism want to preserve itself? "Why" does a bug try and get away when you try and squash it, but a rock just sits there and gets squashed? Why do the birds go on singing? Why do the stars shine above?
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    If both can develope simultaneously in utero, then there's nothing preventing them from evolving together over millions of years. Q.E.D.

    Except that a baby depends on it's mother for protection and food. Outside of the womb, baby dies. You know it's true. So you're saying a fetus-like creature could survive on it's own with no external help, but not only survive, thrive.
     

    hoosierdoc

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    Again... I am talking about the genetic code changing MIlLIONS of amino acids to direct the body to make an eye. This happens ONE at a time, it's random; remember?

    so just as fast as the body is mutating to make an eye, it is mutating to NOT make an I. I'm talking genetic code.

    you keep bringing up the PROcESSING of that code. I'm talking the writing of it.

    If both can develope simultaneously in utero, then there's nothing preventing them from evolving together over millions of years from primitive forms to modern forms across thousands of intermediary species and hundreds of thousands of individual mutations. Q.E.D.
     

    CathyInBlue

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    Except that a baby depends on it's mother for protection and food. Outside of the womb, baby dies. You know it's true. So you're saying a fetus-like creature could survive on it's own with no external help, but not only survive, thrive.
    No, but a primitive multi-cellular organism with light sensitive spots on its top part can survive and thrive in its environment to evolve into more complex organisms, up through and including human beings, each stage along the way developing incrementally more complex eyes without needing to rely on a divine spoken word for its eyeballs and optic nerves to remain real.
     

    CathyInBlue

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    I didn't use a baby as an example. You did. You're clearly contradicting yourself.
    How? They're both examples of an organism developing from a single cell to a complete individual with all of the complex structures at maturity intact. The fetus is an example of a single individual. With hoosierdoc, I'm also discussing the developement of a modern race through thousands of intermediate species. Same basic biologic processes are at play, just sped up to light speed in the fetal example. Take the fetal level of developement, slow it down, and make each stage a mature species of its own. It's not saying a fetus is able to survive on its own. It's saying there once was a species whose ocular developement topped out at the same level as the fetus's at day X. That species had its day, mutated into a new species whose ocular developement advanced to that of the fetus at day X+1. Proceed from there.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    How? They're both examples of an organism developing from a single cell to a complete individual with all of the complex structures at maturity intact. The fetus is an example of a single individual. With hoosierdoc, I'm also discussing the developement of a modern race through thousands of intermediate species. Same basic biologic processes are at play, just sped up to light speed in the fetal example. Take the fetal level of developement, slow it down, and make each stage a mature species of its own. It's not saying a fetus is able to survive on its own. It's saying there once was a species whose ocular developement topped out at the same level as the fetus's at day X. That species had its day, mutated into a new species whose ocular developement advanced to that of the fetus at day X+1. Proceed from there.

    1,000% of the time a very, very young fetus outside of the womb dies without external help. But if you take a million fetus' (fetuses?) and give them a billion years one of them is sure to become a mechanical engineer. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work.
     

    CathyInBlue

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    Again... I am talking about the genetic code changing MIlLIONS of amino acids to direct the body to make an eye. This happens ONE at a time, it's random; remember?

    so just as fast as the body is mutating to make an eye, it is mutating to NOT make an I. I'm talking genetic code.

    you keep bringing up the PROcESSING of that code. I'm talking the writing of it.
    Except that those "random" mutations that result in individuals who are not as well adapted to their environment get their individuals killed off early, whether in the egg phase, in utero, as infants, or otherwise prior to sexual maturity, or whatever passes for reproductive potential in the species at hand. Only those mutations which at the very least do not hinder maturity survive. Also, keep in mind, that the Earth was not a bio lab running a single experimental line on a government contract. It was conducting these experiments, and still is, on an on-going basis all over the planet. Eyes evolved along multiple genetic lines in parallel, some experiments dying off, others being started. I'm sure some amino acids were used for different purposes by different species at different times, or even simultaneously. What matters is not the specific amino acids that were coded for. What matters is how the individuals were able to use those amino acids for photosensitive detection of food, mates, and predators.

    The amino acids that were found useful for eye production were reinforced and eye production was promoted.
     

    CathyInBlue

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    1,000% of the time a very, very young fetus outside of the womb dies without external help. But if you take a million fetus' (fetuses?) and give them a billion years one of them is sure to become a mechanical engineer. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work.
    I agree, but that's not what I said. Clearly we are talking past one another at this point.
     

    hoosierdoc

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    You still aren't getting it. For a trait to be expressed and a new/different function/organ to exist takes a TON of mutation. How did all the insignificant mutation retain in the code if it didn't yet lead to any improvement??? And if it was maintained, it itself would be mutated away from development of a process. Amino acids don't "help" eyes develop. It's an all or nothing thing. There is no direction Or pathway where when enough building blocks exist suddenly an organ coalesces.

    evolution is random. You seem to be forgetting that. It hinders organisms as much as it helps. Natural selection reinforces the mutations that help. BUT, how does that benefit expressed without a new function/adaptation expressed?

    It's hard to mutate a species because there is so much dilution of the mutations. It takes a significant advantage to be expressed and increase genetic spread (babies). Humans are too wide spread and not isolated to significantly change now. Imagine that.
     
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    CathyInBlue

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    No, you didn't explain the "why". You just expanded on the how. "Why" does something self-perpetuate? "Why" does a living organism want to preserve itself? "Why" does a bug try and get away when you try and squash it, but a rock just sits there and gets squashed? Why do the birds go on singing? Why do the stars shine above?
    Sounds like you want some kind of answer to the age old question "What is the purpose of life?" At the deepest levels, the purpose of life is to live. Simple as that. Beyond that, you have to find your own purpose for your own life.
     

    CathyInBlue

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    You still aren't getting it. For a trait to be expressed and a new/different function/organ to exist takes a TON of mutation. How did all the insignificant mutation retain in the code if it didn't yet lead to any improvement??? And if it was maintained, it itself would be mutated away from development of a process.

    evolution is random. You seem to be forgetting that. It hinders organisms as much as it helps. Natural selection reinforces the mutations that help. BUT, how does that benefit expressed without a new function/adaptation expressed?
    So, you're telling me that for a primitive multi-cellular organism to randomly mutate a cell, adjacent to the nerve complex that represented its primitive brain, that was slightly photosensitive, it took a million specific mutations that had to be geared (apparently guided by the hand of god) toward eye production? BS. You're almost ready to start contradicting yourself. The primitive multi-cellular species is constantly mutating randomly. Those those mutations are not neutral to positive die off. Those whose mutations are beneficial to neutral survive. The ones that learn to use the photosensitivity trick that that one cell managed to get, starts reinforcing that evolutionary pathway. The evolutionary pathways that would hinder eye production do not get a chance to actually hinder eye production, because they die off. If an organism has the genes for the photosensitivity trick, but fails to use it, it dies off and whatever genetic bug failed to cause it to use the photosensitivity trick is selected against in the next generation. All of this is happening on a massively parallel scale on the primitive Earth.

    As we have both mentioned, mutations don't have to triple lifespan or allow an organism to survive in any environment whatsoever to propagate to the next generation. As long as it doesn't hinder reproduction, it can propagate. Hence, millions of individual mutations can still manage to line up randomly before an individual multi-cellular organism figures out how to use them for the photosensitivity trick.
     

    CathyInBlue

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    How does evolution as origin of species coexist with entropy?
    Life as a chemical process is explicitly using energy collected from the environment to decrease the entropy of the organism itself, and thereby of the organism's species and all species descended from that organism. This is not a violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If you could find a giant rock floating in deep space with no source of energy, no radioactive element decay, no solar radiation, just a solid mass of elemental matter, and yet, life evolved in its outer crust to wiggle and squirm across its surface, then I would grant you something that looks exactly like a violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics will have occurred.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Except that those "random" mutations that result in individuals who are not as well adapted to their environment get their individuals killed off early, whether in the egg phase, in utero, as infants, or otherwise prior to sexual maturity, or whatever passes for reproductive potential in the species at hand. Only those mutations which at the very least do not hinder maturity survive. Also, keep in mind, that the Earth was not a bio lab running a single experimental line on a government contract. It was conducting these experiments, and still is, on an on-going basis all over the planet. Eyes evolved along multiple genetic lines in parallel, some experiments dying off, others being started. I'm sure some amino acids were used for different purposes by different species at different times, or even simultaneously. What matters is not the specific amino acids that were coded for. What matters is how the individuals were able to use those amino acids for photosensitive detection of food, mates, and predators.

    The amino acids that were found useful for eye production were reinforced and eye production was promoted.

    Sounds like you want some kind of answer to the age old question "What is the purpose of life?" At the deepest levels, the purpose of life is to live. Simple as that. Beyond that, you have to find your own purpose for your own life.

    Actually I am wanting to know what "It" is. You said "It" is conducting experiments. That implies that some intelligent being is acting upon something to conduct these experiments. What (or who) is conducting them? Again, the "purpose" as you describe it, is more "What" than "Why". I suspect that if "It" could be defined, then we would have the "Why".
     
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    CathyInBlue

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    Except that those "random" mutations that result in individuals who are not as well adapted to their environment get their individuals killed off early, whether in the egg phase, in utero, as infants, or otherwise prior to sexual maturity, or whatever passes for reproductive potential in the species at hand. Only those mutations which at the very least do not hinder maturity survive. Also, keep in mind, that the Earth was not a bio lab running a single experimental line on a government contract. It was conducting these experiments, and still is, on an on-going basis all over the planet. Eyes evolved along multiple genetic lines in parallel, some experiments dying off, others being started. I'm sure some amino acids were used for different purposes by different species at different times, or even simultaneously. What matters is not the specific amino acids that were coded for. What matters is how the individuals were able to use those amino acids for photosensitive detection of food, mates, and predators.

    The amino acids that were found useful for eye production were reinforced and eye production was promoted.
    When the pronoun "it" is used as the subject of a sentence, the actual noun to which "it" is referring is likely to be found as the subject, direct, or indirect object of the immediately preceding sentence in decreasing order of probability.

    I may have indulged in a bit of anthropomorphism. The Earth is not intelligently directing experiments following the Scientific Method. The Earth is the environment in which these chemical and biological processes are given free reign. My intent was to illustrate the massively parallel nature of those processes by comparison to a rigidly linear sequential process.
     
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