Calling all vets...

[indianajoe]

Calling all vets... comments invited

I recently stumbled onto a college newspaper article, written by a former Marine who, as a lance corporal, described the minor disciplinary thumping he received from a sergeant as "hazing." Part of this young guy's narrative, to put things in context (emphasis is mine)....

"I’ll never forget the day. I was a junior Marine. I always demanded respect even when I was the lower guy on the totem pole. One particular sergeant didn’t like that. He was so disgusted with me that he decided to take things into his own hands. Yeah, I know demanding respect from superiors as a junior Marine sounds a little crazy, considering the nature of the Corps, but I simply believed that once I’d gone through the rigors of boot camp, being torn down and rebuilt, I would be respected as an adult again, as funny as that may sound in retrospect."

In turn, I offered commentary from this former Marine (that would be me), who has a different perspective. Part of my comment, as example: "Of all places and organizations, the Marine Corps is one where respect is earned…. it’s not something that is given and certainly not something that a lance corporal demands of his noncommissioned officers."

A comment that then followed from another former Marine who received a "...OTH discharge. Thats Other Than Honarable [sic], just in case they didn’t use that during WWI Joe" was interesting, to speak mildly.

I followed up, and concluded with an open invitation: "I’d be interested to hear the opinions of other vets on their views of honor, respect, accountability, and character… relative to service in the military."

I'd like to invite any of you vets to check this thread, and offer your own comment, whichever way you lean:

OnHazing - thehullabaloo.com

 

[Dryden]

Hazing was never a problem in the Air Force. Sure, you got jerked around and had your chops busted, but when it came to physical punishment, there was a line you did not cross.
I know Marines are a special breed. I know they see themselves as the toughest branch of the military. (well earned and deserved) But, I would hope that needlessly and purposely beating young men is not part of that heritage.

 

[bulldog]

The only hazing I was aware of was "pinning on chevrons or blood stripes ",not to mention nailing on jump wings.These things we all had in common. It was tradition. E'sprit de Corp as I recall. These things served their purpose,just like blanket parties did.Sometimes it even took more effort to square away young Marines.Those of us that were mission oriented did whatever it took. SSGT USMC 1979-1987 HONORABLY DISCHARGED

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

"Blood tags " or "pinning on stripes" was the accepted norm for troops in some of the more "motivated" fields .

Although it wasn't officially sanctioned on occasion a rare soldier would need "remedial training" if other methods were exhausted .

 

[hornadylnl]

I recently stumbled onto a college newspaper article, written by a former Marine who, as a lance corporal, described the minor disciplinary thumping he received from a sergeant as "hazing." Part of this young guy's narrative, to put things in context (emphasis is mine)....

Quote:
"I’ll never forget the day. I was a junior Marine. I always demanded respect even when I was the lower guy on the totem pole. One particular sergeant didn’t like that. He was so disgusted with me that he decided to take things into his own hands. Yeah, I know demanding respect from superiors as a junior Marine sounds a little crazy, considering the nature of the Corps, but I simply believed that once I’d gone through the rigors of boot camp, being torn down and rebuilt, I would be respected as an adult again, as funny as that may sound in retrospect."

In turn, I offered commentary from this former Marine (that would be me), who has a different perspective. Part of my comment, as example: "Of all places and organizations, the Marine Corps is one where respect is earned…. it’s not something that is given and certainly not something that a lance corporal demands of his noncommissioned officers."

A comment that then followed from another former Marine who received a "...OTH discharge. Thats Other Than Honarable [sic], just in case they didn’t use that during WWI Joe" was interesting, to speak mildly.

I followed up, and concluded with an open invitation: "I’d be interested to hear the opinions of other vets on their views of honor, respect, accountability, and character… relative to service in the military."

I'd like to invite any of you vets to check this thread, and offer your own comment, whichever way you lean:

OnHazing - thehullabaloo.com

I agree with the guy you quoted. I think a pyschological beat down is necessary in basic training but once you get to a unit, you need to be treated like an f'ing adult. I think you read too much into the junior Marine demanding respect. I think what he is saying, and how I perceive the military should be, is that he be treated like an adult until he proves otherwise. I don't think he's expecting to be treated as a war hero right out of boot camp.

Our soldiers need to be treated like adults, not children. I was mechanized infantry and our team and squad leaders were supposed to come to our barracks rooms every morning to make sure we were up and made it to formation on time. What employer out there is going to give you a personal wake up call every morning to make sure you make it to work? This is just one example of the coddling that goes on in the military. If you can't handle getting out of bed in the morning, then maybe they need to chapter you out so you can get a evening job in the civilian world.

The only hazing I was aware of was "pinning on chevrons or blood stripes ",not to mention nailing on jump wings.These things we all had in common. It was tradition. E'sprit de Corp as I recall. These things served their purpose,just like blanket parties did.Sometimes it even took more effort to square away young Marines.Those of us that were mission oriented did whatever it took. SSGT USMC 1979-1987 HONORABLY DISCHARGED

Yes, I got my rank pounded into my chest. I guess somehow I'm a better man for it? The rule in my platoon was that anyone who outranked you got to punch it into you, which was everyone for my E2,3 and 4. When the opportunity came for me to return the favor, I shook the guys hand and moved on. I can't stand the mentality of those who want to payback the lower enlisted because they had it happen to them. For most, it is about payback, not E'sprit de Corp or tradition. You know what they say about tradition in the Army don't you? 200 years of tradition, unhampered by change.

 

[MoparMan]

I joined the Army Infanry in 96 and was "smoked" as a private when i got to my unit-101st. This continued for approximately 1 week, which i expected and enjoyed. It was all with fun and also for me to show the senior enlisted respect. I even did stuff to get "smoked" which helped in my physical shape and endurance.

It usually just happens at the team/squad leader level. Usually the team/squad leader "smokes" the "cherry"(new guy) until he sees how squarred away the soldier is.

It still happens in some line units, which is great.
Now people that are non combat arms may not understand it or accept it.

 

[hornadylnl]

I joined the Army Infanry in 96 and was "smoked" as a private when i got to my unit-101st. This continued for approximately 1 week, which i expected and enjoyed. It was all with fun and also for me to show the senior enlisted respect. I even did stuff to get "smoked" which helped in my physical shape and endurance.

It usually just happens at the team/squad leader level. Usually the team/squad leader "smokes" the "cherry"(new guy) until he sees how squarred away the soldier is.

It still happens in some line units, which is great.
Now people that are non combat arms may not understand it or accept it.

Getting smoked when you need it is one thing. Getting smoked to boost the NCO's ego is another.

 

[Mgderf]

Getting smoked when you need it is one thing. Getting smoked to boost the NCO's ego is another.

This is not SOP (standard operating procedure), however, there is one in every crowd!

 

[hornadylnl]

[/b]
This is not SOP (standard operating procedure), however, there is one in every crowd!

Unfortunately, the "crowd" of my first unit was made up of about a third of them.

 

[Jay]

You get treated like an adult when you graduate from boot camp. After that, you should get treated like your rank dictates..... unless you feel pompus enough to demand anything from one who outranks you...then you become fair game.

 

[hornadylnl]

You get treated like an adult when you graduate from boot camp. After that, you should get treated like your rank dictates..... unless you feel pompus enough to demand anything from one who outranks you...then you become fair game.

Would you tolerate a civilian employer talking down to you and treating like dirt simply because they can?

 

[Jay]

Would you tolerate a civilian employer talking down to you and treating like dirt simply because they can?

bam-bam is treating this whole country.... AND YOU, like dirt...do something about it...... well?

Read my post....didn't say "just because they can"...

unless you feel pompus enough to demand anything from one who outranks you..

sound familiar ? Junior enlisted folks don't "demand" anything. Deal with it.

Didn't say it was right, but mouth off at yer boss about the way he/she treats you and see what happens. In civilian life you can always quit. There is a chain of command in the military, but the vast majority of the time, if a junior enlisted person does their job, and avoids being a pain in the butt, things stay stable. Yep, there are exceptions, but most of those are instigated by the junior folks. That was my experience...... of course, everyone else's experiences may vary.

and..... what I would tolerate, and how I would tolerate it, has changed considerably since I was a 17 year-old Marine. Just sayin'...

 

[r3126]

The "military" and the Marine Corps in particular, is not a democratic organization. Like it or not, the issue is that a lance corporal IS NOT the military equal of a corporal - just like the PFC is not the military equal of a lance corporal. Having a discussion with a senior in rank regarding the issuance of an order is disaster waiting to happen, I know, nothing was said about questioning an order, but that is the logical next step in a relationship where clear lines of authority are not evident. "Gee, sarge, why do I have to burn the s#@t? Can't Smith (or Jones) do it?"

The purpose of a military is to win a war (should one occur) and to win a war you must have an organization that has an immediate response to an order. Orders cannot be discussed, only executed! Oh, I know, how about an illegal order? There are provisions for that.

Subordinates should be treated FIRMLY, FAIRLY AND WITH DIGNITY. A supervisor, worth his salt, knows this and lives by it. Hazing has no place in a well trained and prepared unit - yet there is a fine line between hazing and initiation rites but a good leader stays on top of that issue. The cogent issue, herein, is that familiarity between senior and subordinate breeds breakdown in military discipline. A unit without discipline is no longer an effective military organization.

My .02.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

You get treated like an adult when you graduate from boot camp. After that, you should get treated like your rank dictates..... unless you feel pompus enough to demand anything from one who outranks you...then you become fair game.

This ^^^^exactly !

I can't even count the number of chuckle head E1 - E4 's that came to sick call because they got drunk the night before and did something stupid .

That's not to say that every junior enlisted needs "coddling" , but quite a few of them don't get the whole idea military discipline for sometimes , the first few years .

 

[Cwood]

That's not to say that every junior enlisted needs "coddling" , but quite a few of them don't get the whole idea military discipline for sometimes , the first few years .

 

[Dryden]

This ^^^^exactly !

I can't even count the number of chuckle head E1 - E4 's that came to sick call because they got drunk the night before and did something stupid .

That's not to say that every junior enlisted needs "coddling" , but quite a few of them don't get the whole idea military discipline for sometimes , the first few years .

My base Hospital refused to take morning hang-overs. If you were too drunk for duty, you got an Article 15. If you were just hung-over, you went out into the field to take your station (usually the worst... reserved just for your sorry butt)

 

[jeremy]

First respect is something that you earn, not demand.
Second I will not have a subordinate question my Authority. If you want my job get promoted. You can have it.
Third If you demand I respect you then you may get a corrective training in thy error of you ways.
Forth If you question my Authority, then you will pay the price.

The moral of the story is do what you think you grade can handle...

If you want to see why PFC and SGT are treated differently then by all means we can experiment on this...

 

[dburkhead]

In my experience there is an inverse relationship between the respect demanded and the respect deserved. The more they demand it, the less they deserve it.

There are the public forms and show of "respect" that are demanded by the military as part of "good order and discipline," without which no military organization can function effectively, but those flow in one direction. That's something of a different thing.

 

[kedie]

I see no hazing in this situation. What I see is a dicipline problem that got corrected. When I got to a new unit, I kept my mouth shut and did as I was told. Showing your NCO's and fellow soldiers that you're squared away is the fastest way to earn their respect. You sure as hell don't do it by acting like you're Audie Murphy straight out of basic.

 

[hornadylnl]

This ^^^^exactly !

I can't even count the number of chuckle head E1 - E4 's that came to sick call because they got drunk the night before and did something stupid .

That's not to say that every junior enlisted needs "coddling" , but quite a few of them don't get the whole idea military discipline for sometimes , the first few years .

If this is true than the leadership has failed. Chapter the idiots out. Ever think that by coddling them, they ard perpetuating the problem? If the douche bag that was next to you in formation yesterday is now on his way with a dishonorable discharge, you might think twice about goin out and doing something stupid tonight. You want to get the message out, end some careers.

Do you think SF and Delta need to have constant Richard measuring sessions to know who is in charge?