Bird shot + Judge = boo-boo

[BehindBlueI's]

Holy cow people. You don't just want to stop an intruder, you want to cut them in half. Are there lions, tigers and bears in your neighborhood? OhMY!. In my experiences 100% of the bipedal up to no goods turn and run at the first site of "any" weapon. They are all inherently cowards. Your choice of a defensive weapon, is your choice. And I respect that. You should do the same to others.

What are your experiences?

 

[tlandon]

On site Property Manager in Ft. Lauderdale and High Risk Armed Security work in Broward County, FL. Several incidents in both positions. Weapon drawn many times, but lucky for me and them no shots fired. As I am sure you know. Being a security officer I didnt really have any more rights than the people I had to deal with. I am sure being in LE you have had many more experiences than I have. I can tell you that the vast majority of Southeast Florida is a Third World s--t hole.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

On site Property Manager in Ft. Lauderdale and High Risk Armed Security work in Broward County, FL. Several incidents in both positions. Weapon drawn many times, but lucky for me and them no shots fired. As I am sure you know. Being a security officer I didnt really have any more rights than the people I had to deal with. I am sure being in LE you have had many more experiences than I have. I can tell you that the vast majority of Southeast Florida is a Third World s--t hole.

Would it change your mind to see videos or see case files where suspects did not run? That they killed the victim who accessed a weapon? Disarmed and raped the victim? Shot and disabled the victim and took their weapon?

Sometimes sight of a weapon is enough. Sometimes it isn't.

 

[Zoub]

O

Traditionalist.

Starting from the bottom pic, a lot of guys who dress like that now carry guns like a Winchester model 21. Sadly I didn't buy any when they were "cheap." My FIL has some but he never puts one under the Xmas tree for me. Although third chick from the left, I admit I bid in auction for a similar folding seat for my MIL but price went stupid high.

Middle pic, looks more like moonshiners!

Top pic, if that's a fedora maybe we are making progress. I actually need a few new hats and I always liked the one worn by Dez Young in his show hunting with Hank. If his hats qualify as fedora then it turns out I was for them before I was against them.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

I just wanted to point out that sweet Remington Model 14


You may now return to your regularly scheduled

 

[Zoub]

Are there lions, tigers and bears in your neighborhood? .

Mtn. Lions, Wolves and Bears.

So when I hunt I carry two guns, shotgun or rifle and a handgun. May be heavier then just a Judge but each works better for their intended purpose. Except when I miss.

 

[rhino]

Mtn. Lions, Wolves and Bears.

So when I hunt I carry two guns, shotgun or rifle and a handgun. May be heavier then just a Judge but each works better for their intended purpose. Except when I miss.

Don't forget the most dangerous and rare creature in those woods: the Mark I Zoub!

 

[Zoub]

Don't forget the most dangerous and rare creature in those woods: the Mark I Zoub!

You know what, you just made an obscure reference to the crossfire didn't you? Wow, I am impressed. I am the only guy I know who has handled one. What a giant cluster ****, but Taylor made for Judge lovers! Probably helped pave the way for the logic of the Judge.

It ain't Flip but it will have to do for now.
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hIcKkKID8k[/video]

 

[rhino]

You know what, you just made an obscure reference to the crossfire didn't you? Wow, I am impressed. I am the only guy I know who has handled one. What a giant cluster ****, but Taylor made for Judge lovers! Probably helped pave the way for the logic of the Judge.

It ain't Flip but it will have to do for now.
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hIcKkKID8k[/video]

It was a coincidence, but I like your version better.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

You know what, you just made an obscure reference to the crossfire didn't you? Wow, I am impressed. I am the only guy I know who has handled one. What a giant cluster ****, but Taylor made for Judge lovers! Probably helped pave the way for the logic of the Judge.

It ain't Flip but it will have to do for now.
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hIcKkKID8k[/video]

I handled a Crossfire Mark I at a gunshow in Evansville, IN many years ago when I was a teenager...a very interesting oddity that I'm surprised someone actually put up the money to manufacture.

 

[indiucky]

I just wanted to point out that sweet Remington Model 14

I thought the same thing...Just something about that twisted tube that looks so dang cool....

 

[Zoub]

I handled a Crossfire Mark I at a gunshow in Evansville, IN many years ago when I was a teenager...a very interesting oddity that I'm surprised someone actually put up the money to manufacture.

Proving that making something does not mean it is worth making.

Rhino has made something here, something good. The Mark I Fedora Club.

 

[tlandon]

Would it change your mind to see videos or see case files where suspects did not run? That they killed the victim who accessed a weapon? Disarmed and raped the victim? Shot and disabled the victim and took their weapon?

Sometimes sight of a weapon is enough. Sometimes it isn't.

Yes, I agree. If you carry a weapon for defense, you must have the mindset to use it. Average citizens that own firearms are not trained to kill. They have no idea how they will react in a real situation like that. Most will hesitate because they are good people and don't really want to hurt someone. I think that is the main reason situations as you described happen. Just in my own experiences. The dirtbags always backed down. In all those instances I was prepared, I think, to stop them if things went any further.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes, I agree. If you carry a weapon for defense, you must have the mindset to use it. Average citizens that own firearms are not trained to kill. They have no idea how they will react in a real situation like that. Most will hesitate because they are good people and don't really want to hurt someone. I think that is the main reason situations as you described happen. Just in my own experiences. The dirtbags always backed down. In all those instances I was prepared, I think, to stop them if things went any further.

Ok, good, so now we're past relying on mere sight of a weapon to dissuade an attacker. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. I would suppose that as a security guard most of your encounters are thieves and trespassers, not violent criminals. They are likely fleeing at any hint of detection, period, at a greater rate than more violent criminals will.

So now can we move on to poor performing cartridges? How many of those times, if the intruder took it to the next level, was an "ear shot" a realistic option? Relying on such pin point shot placement is the same as relying on the "100% flee" mentality. That's not a realistic option. I'd invite you to watch robbery videos online and see how many that the "ear shot" technique is a viable option, and fast enough to matter. Even a head shot is NOT a reliable stopper with the .25. I've posted several incidents here where at near contact distance it failed to do any significant injury, even in a head shot. One was an attempt suicide with the gun held under the chin, a nearly ideal shot placement. Yes, I've seen people with a .357 magnum through the chest still able to function. Not in anywhere the same ratios, though. Can it work? Absolutely. Again, so can a starter pistol in some situations. Will it work as often as a .380 and up? Nope.

The "respect people's carry choice" is not doing anyone any favors if they don't have a realistic idea of the limitations of what they choose to carry. Biting off more than you can chew is often more dangerous than compliance.

 

[tlandon]

I wasnt a Security Guard. I was a Security Officer that enforced, strickly, the properties rules and regulations. I kind of take that personally. I was armed for a reason at these security jobs.The property owners didnt want us there to be nice to the tenants. They wanted us dressed tactical and not take any BS from anyone on the grounds. We didnt sit at desks or Guard Houses. We continually patrolled the entire grounds, on foot. We had the full support of the local Sheriffs Office and they responded quickly when we called. They were very glad we were there. We only took high risk jobs. We were required to wear a ballistic vest, dress in all black tactical clothing and carry a high capacity handgun with at least two extra mags. We also carried a steel baton, cuffs and OC Spray. The people we dealt with were not very good people. Absolutely no regard for authority, rules, decency or respect for anything.

I didnt rely on 100% flee mentality on the job. I was prepared.
This argument about caliber for a personal carry weapon will never go away. All I can say is I am a firm believer in shot placement. Maybe I am all wrong, but hopefully we will never have to test our opinions. Although maybe you have already. But fortunately I have not. Thanks for being civil in our discussion, Tim.

 

[CPT Nervous]

I wasnt a Security Guard. I was a Security Officer that enforced, strickly, the properties rules and regulations. I kind of take that personally. I was armed for a reason at these security jobs.The property owners didnt want us there to be nice to the tenants. They wanted us dressed tactical and not take any BS from anyone on the grounds. We didnt sit at desks or Guard Houses. We continually patrolled the entire grounds, on foot. We had the full support of the local Sheriffs Office and they responded quickly when we called. They were very glad we were there. We only took high risk jobs. We were required to wear a ballistic vest, dress in all black tactical clothing and carry a high capacity handgun with at least two extra mags. We also carried a steel baton, cuffs and OC Spray. The people we dealt with were not very good people. Absolutely no regard for authority, rules, decency or respect for anything.

I didnt rely on 100% flee mentality on the job. I was prepared.
This argument about caliber for a personal carry weapon will never go away. All I can say is I am a firm believer in shot placement. Maybe I am all wrong, but hopefully we will never have to test our opinions. Although maybe you have already. But fortunately I have not. Thanks for being civil in our discussion, Tim.

 

[printcraft]

I wasnt a Security Guard. I was a Security Officer that enforced, strickly, the properties rules and regulations. I kind of take that personally. I was armed for a reason at these security jobs.The property owners didnt want us there to be nice to the tenants. They wanted us dressed tactical and not take any BS from anyone on the grounds. We didnt sit at desks or Guard Houses. We continually patrolled the entire grounds, on foot. We had the full support of the local Sheriffs Office and they responded quickly when we called. They were very glad we were there. We only took high risk jobs. We were required to wear a ballistic vest, dress in all black tactical clothing and carry a high capacity handgun with at least two extra mags. We also carried a steel baton, cuffs and OC Spray. The people we dealt with were not very good people. Absolutely no regard for authority, rules, decency or respect for anything.

What? No special boots to climb walls?

 

[CPT Nervous]

Gecko45?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Maybe I am all wrong, but hopefully we will never have to test our opinions. Although maybe you have already. But fortunately I have not. Thanks for being civil in our discussion, Tim.

Well, here's what I will tell you. I did a quick poll around the office. Keep in mind this is Homicide & Robbery. The .25 was universally panned as a poor choice, regardless of shot placement. One homicide detective who's been doing that specific job for almost 20 years now said "if you're so in control of a situation you can rely on that level of pinpoint shot placement, you don't need a gun." We've ALL seen failed suicides from head shots with the .25, I've posted about a guy shot twice through a screen door and only bruised. It is not enough gun, and relying on such extreme precision in shot placement isn't realistic in the time constraints and chaos of violent confrontations. You are talking about over 160 years of collective investigative experience dealing in a shootings saying "the .25 sucks to defend yourself with."

This is not an ego thing for me. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again, and there's things I've changed my mind on in this realm. Things I thought would work and saw that they failed horribly and vice versa. I'm STILL not sure where I'm at with certain calibers, if .380 is better in ball or hollowpoints, for example. The ONLY reason I bother to engage in these "carrying on an empty chamber" and "calibers are all the same" and the like is because I want "the good guy", whoever that is, to have the best potential chance of winning because it sucks ass big time when the good guy loses. What people don't know, or what they falsely believe, absolutely can hurt them.

 

[Bigtanker]

Gecko45?

I was thinking the same thing.