Asked the ATF if ok to sell a P80...

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  • Airtevron1

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    17   0   0
    Sep 10, 2019
    618
    63
    IN
    I builte a few of these and looking to maybe sell one or two. Ask 17 different people about it, get 17 different answers.
    Here is what ATF said...sounds like a definite maybe.

    FIPB Regulatory Email Inquiries <FIPB.Regulatory.Email.Inquiries@usdoj.gov>​

    Tue, Dec 28, 11:31 AM (1 day ago)
    to me
    Sir,
    Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email, in which you inquired whether you may make a firearm for personal use from an “80% lower” and later sell the firearm.

    Our response assumes the firearm in question is not regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

    ATF has addressed the topic of “80% receivers” in this FAQ:
    What is an “80%” or “unfinished" receiver?
    80% receiver,” “80% finished,” “80% complete,” “unfinished receiver” are all terms referring to an item that some may believe has not yet reached a stage of manufacture that meets the definition of firearm frame or receiver found in the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). These are not statutory terms or terms ATF employs or endorses.

    Under Federal law, a license is not required to make a firearm solely for personal use. However, a license is required to manufacture firearms for sale or distribution. The law prohibits a person from assembling a non–sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as well as firearms that cannot be detected by metal detectors or x–ray machines. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF.

    Additionally, although markings are not required on privately-made firearms (excluding NFA firearmse.g., short-barreled rifles – which require approval from ATF to make or acquire and are registered under Federal law), owners are recommended to conspicuously place or engrave a serial number and/or other marks of identification to aid in investigation or recovery by State or local law enforcement officials in the event of a theft or loss of the privately owned firearm.

    ATF Ruling 2015-1 may be applicable in the scenario you described because the activity involves a manufacturing processes which will make a frame or receiver, or make an existing frame or receiver functional – that is, suitable for use as part of a weapon that will expel a projectile by the action of an explosive.

    So, the question becomes whether you are engaged in the business as a firearms manufacturer; if so, you must obtain a Federal firearms license (FFL) before engaging in such activity.

    The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. 922, states, in part (emphasis added):
    (a) It shall be unlawful-
    (1) for any person-
    (A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce;


    The GCA, 18 U.S.C 921(a), defines the terms “manufacturer” and “engaged in the business” as (emphasis added):
    (10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

    (21) The term ‘‘engaged in the business’’ means—

    (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;

    (B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;


    Please understand that the making and distribution of as few as one firearm may be considered engaged in the business and, thus, requires an FFL. Each case is unique and is based on the elements known to the maker of such firearm(s). You will have to apply the aforementioned information along with the facts as known by you and proceed accordingly.

    Regarding the transfer of a firearm by a nonlicensee, the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(5), generally prohibits a person from transferring a firearm to a person who the transferor has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the transferor’s State of residence as explained in this ATF FAQ (emphasis added):

    To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

    A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions. A person considering transferring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions.

    Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a
    Federal firearms licensee (FFL) within the transferee’s State of residence. The transferee may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check.

    A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he or she or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent.

    A person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

    [
    18 U.S.C 922(a)(5) and 922(d); 27 CFR 478.30, 478.32]

    In addition, there may be State laws that pertain to this proposed activity. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General (www.naag.org) for information on any such requirements. You may also find information in ATF publication 5300.5: State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms.

    We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found here.

    Regards,
     

    MCgrease08

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    37   0   0
    Mar 14, 2013
    14,648
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    Earth
    Their answer was much too complicated, but the language in the law really is pretty clear.

    Are you currently devoting time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured?

    If not, sell away.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    25,972
    113
    Ripley County
    Their answer was much too complicated, but the language in the law really is pretty clear.

    Are you currently devoting time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured?

    If not, sell away.
    It takes a lot of firearms sales to become a livelihood then they put in profit lol.....

    You make one cent extra you've made a profit. I wonder if they would use that against someone they took notice of?
     

    MCgrease08

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    37   0   0
    Mar 14, 2013
    14,648
    149
    Earth
    It takes a lot of firearms sales to become a livelihood then they put in profit lol.....

    You make one cent extra you've made a profit. I wonder if they would use that against someone they took notice of?
    Livelihood and profit. Not or profit.

    Basically if you can't pay your bills making poly 80s, then you aren't engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.
     

    B737Mech

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 6, 2010
    15
    3
    Noblesville
    Livelihood and profit. Not or profit.

    Basically if you can't pay your bills making poly 80s, then you aren't engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.
    Don't forget to calculate overhead when determining if you are making a profit, not just the cost of the parts. Overhead can include mortgage/rental costs, utilities, cost of machinery/tools, consumables (drill bits, cutting bits, oil, solvents, cleaning supplies), and time taken to finish the build.
     

    BigRed

    Banned More Than You
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Dec 29, 2017
    20,848
    149
    1,000 yards out
    Don't forget to calculate overhead when determining if you are making a profit, not just the cost of the parts. Overhead can include mortgage/rental costs, utilities, cost of machinery/tools, consumables (drill bits, cutting bits, oil, solvents, cleaning supplies), and time taken to finish the build.

    And the most worthless overhead of all, tribute to state.
     

    Old Dog

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 4, 2016
    1,498
    97
    Central Indiana
    Please understand that the making and distribution of as few as one firearm may be considered engaged in the business and, thus, requires an FFL. Each case is unique and is based on the elements known to the maker of such firearm(s). You will have to apply the aforementioned information along with the facts as known by you and proceed accordingly.
    Huh? What about the... "as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;" So, one is now in the business?

    That was a difficult read! It was also rather heart breaking that the feds drag things out so far.
     
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